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Tuesday’s second season finale of Superman & Lois finally gave viewers an answer they’ve been waiting for — even if it wasn’t the answer they were expecting.
We’re talking about how exactly this show is connected to the larger Arrowverse, something that was addressed (albeit briefly) this week by General Lane. Mild finale spoilers ahead!
“I’ve been working for the DOD for a long time,” Sam told his grandsons. “I’ve seen things you would not believe — glimpses of other worlds, and the leagues of superheroes they have on them. And even though we only have your father on this planet, thank God that we do, because he’s the finest of any Earth.”
Speaking with TVLine, showrunner Todd Helbing acknowledges, “From Day 1, there were questions of how we were connected to the Arrowverse. If you go back to the first script that got sent to Warner Brothers and DC, it had a lot of references to other heroes like The Flash. There were moments when we were shooting, and I think I’ve said this before, but there was a photo of Kara on Lois’ desk at the Daily Planet. All of that stuff got slowly pulled out, and the more we did that, the more it became a can of worms to even mention it.”
So, why didn’t we get this big speech sooner?
“DC and I had a conversation during Season 1, and the decision [to keep Superman & Lois separate] was made then, but I couldn’t make it public until the end of this season,” Helbing explains. “So when I got all these questions [in previous interviews], I knew what we were doing, but I could never talk about it. It got a little frustrating on my end, but I totally understand DC’s position. So this put that to rest. I’ve said from the beginning that we want to put our own stamp on the Superman property. This wasn’t meant to alienate us from the Arrowverse, but because a lot of the other shows are sadly no longer going to be on the air, it felt like the right thing to do.”
While this Superman is aware of the multiverse, as established in Episode 7 of Season 1, “we have to think about this as a separate Superman, a doppelganger of the one who was in the Arrowverse,” Helbing says. “I understand why everyone has been wanting the references, but it would have felt wrong.”
(In other words, don’t hold your breath for any big crossovers in the near future. Or ever.)
As for the John Diggle we saw at the end of the Season 2 finale, he’s also — you guessed it — not the same Diggle that spent eight seasons kicking butt on Arrow.
“This is also a new Diggle,” Helbing confirms. “David Ramsey had grown a beard and grew his hair out. He called me and said, ‘I’ve been growing my hair, I look different. Do you want me to shave and get a haircut?’ So not to add more confusion to it, but he’s a different Diggle.” (Click here for more intel on the finale.)
Was this the explanation you were expecting? Grade the finale and season of Superman & Lois below, then drop a comment with your thoughts.
Sigh. I guess it’s better than a none answer
Yeah, a little disappointing for Arrowverse fans, but it makes sense.
The Arrowverse shows were steadily buried under the weight of their own shared continuity (or blatant lack thereof). And S&L bending over backwards to incorporate all of that continuity into their stories when the other shows aren’t even around anymore to return the favor and host crossovers feels like a lose-lose situation.
Better to do what Stargirl does and just stand on your own.
🙄
Kinda was expecting this.. but still disappointed that they went this direction.
I think it’s a good decision. Supergirl chewed through a lot of Superman plots and character because, despite her long history as a character, she really doesn’t have much that’s entirely “hers.” I wasn’t always a fan of some of the choices they made in that respect, so having the opportunity to redo some of them–foremost among them Lex Luthor–is very exciting. (And for the record, I liked Cryer, just not always the plots they had him in.)
So then why did Diggle mention Oliver last season, unless that Diggle and Oliver had the same adventures as Arrow Oliver and Diggle
Pretty much. It’s “have your cake and eat it too” continuity where things conveniently happened or didn’t happened as the plot requires. Also in universe I doubt Sam Lane counts 1 or 2 vigilantes as part of Earth’s heroes.
According to another interview.This Diggle also got presented with a glowing green box and also had a Oliver who dfed and also has the same look Diggle had two weeks again on The Flash..I’m sorry I just don’t buy some of his answers here or in other interviews and find the Diggle thing especially lame and lazy.As someone who likes the show and will still watch,my enthusiasm did take a big hit tonight.
I’m with you. Also can someone help refresh my memory on which shows these events happened in:
Supergirl and Martian Manhunter are mentioned as being off-world fighting elsewhere. Was that on The Flash and Supergirl hasn’t been mentioned?
Also, one of the shows had a Flash “cameo” that was not truly a cameo but they called for him to quickly deliver something, which he did – acknowledged but not seen. For some reason I was thinking that was S&L but I guess my CW superhero shows are bleeding together and it was a different one? Or ?
The Flash (non)appearance happened on Black Lightning to save his daughter.
Supergirl & Martian Manhunter being off world was from The Flash in the Armageddon event this season.
The Flash offscreen cameo was in Black Lightning.
Thanks for helping me refresh my memory. It wasn’t quite aligning that the Flash would be needed when Superman can fly but for some reason I had started thinking it was in S&L anyway (also to Art N Cato). Part of me hates that they aren’t further connected, but at the same time, it is kind of like, “where are all the other heroes?” when there’s something really bad happening and no one else shows up, so it probably is for the best to separate it out.
It’s obviously one of those things that happened before they made the call to keep S&L separate. And once they did, they had to call on continuity fixer Rhett Khan to make it work.
So seems like they knew people might not watch if it wasn’t connected to the arrowverse so they didn’t tell us it wasn’t
It’s telling that DC already figured the Arrowverse was on its way out last year and chose to keep this separate. I get it, but it’s disappointing that DC has no interest in sustaining shared universes.
I assume Diggle’s appearances then are a contractual obligation from his CW deal and never about tying the shows together.
I’m on the other end of the fandom. I never watched any of the Arrowverse shows, but the teasers for this show really grabbed me. I’ve been grateful that I haven’t had to research things I hadn’t seen to understand what was happening here.
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That said, I understand people being disappointed that this show isn’t connecting to a universe they love. I’m excited that Quantum Leap this fall is including Magic, an important connection to the original. I also always appreciate when long-running series give original fans nods and payoffs that newer viewers don’t get.
It was exactly the answer I was expecting. I’m both sad and glad about this. On one hand, it’s sad to realize this isn’t the same Clark that we came to know on Supergirl. But, I’m glad that it’s a different Earth. Too much is different and it was getting to be a little ridiculous blaming everything on the events of Crisis. It’s nice that I can now just watch the show and enjoy it for what it is without being annoyed by comments that went directly against the Arrowverse version of Clark, such as multiple comments about him being alone and having no family.
Why mention the boys in Crisis part 5 if you don’t intend to make it the same Clark? Kinda silly. Moreover, no aliens, metas, or super spy heroes other than Superman feels kinda random. Why wouldn’t the Atlanteans or Amazons be on this world (Wonderwoman and Aquaman,) oh well,
Cause the show was clearly originally gonna be in the arrowverse and then things changed.
They had a crossover planned with Batwoman that only got scrapped because of Covid. This was clearly not the intention. And if this is another Earth – then which one?
I could not be more disappointed in the decision to split the show from Earth-Prime. It basically spits in the face of the Arrowverse’s history and its fans. And to deny that Clark/Kara relationship is just awful.
And the logic of, “Some shows are ending so it makes sense to split out show,” doesn’t make sense. Again, that just feels disrespectful to the decade-long universe that was built up.
Perhaps I wouldn’t be as frustrated if this weren’t such an obvious retcon.
They were planning a crossover with Batwoman before COVID cancelled it and Diggle’s appearance at the end of season 1 made it clear this show was OBVIOUSLY meant to be on Earth-Prime.
Diggle mentions Oliver. He mentions fighting alongside Clark. He straight up mentions the freaking Lantern ring box from the Arrow finale.
Just a terrible and kind of insulting decision from the writers.
Yes to this.How I’m feeling too.
Melissa Benoist refuses to pay Supergirl again on tv. She wants to move on. So then if they made Superman and Lois connected to the Supergirl we know, then you’ll never see Supergirl again. This way, they can create their own Kara origin story with another Supergirl playing the role, perhaps played by the girl that will be in the upcoming movie.
Oh boo-hoo that Benoist doesn’t want to play Supergirl again. If they needed Supergirl just recast. She wasn’t that great at the part anyway. Now as far as this theory about DC wanting to disconnect from the shared universe goes, well it’s a little too late for that and the fall back excuse of multiple Earth’s with different heros was put to rest when they did Crisis. I’m not sure if it’s Berlanti that doesn’t want to stick with established continuity or DC trying to run from established continuity. Either way is just lame and shows why DC is never going to catch Marvel. Marvel shows time and again they have more respect for their characters (except Spiderman) than DC does. So now the DCEU is mess and is just making it worse. No more Arrowverse, no more Snyderverse. It’s really hard to be a DC fan these days.
“Oh boo-hoo that Benoist doesn’t want to play Supergirl again. If they needed Supergirl just recast.”
Doesn’t work that way with a series lead. Even The CW knew that when EPs proposed a Supergirl Season 7 without Benoist participating, the net was smart enough to immediately shut that lame idea down.
Well, in terms of the Arrowverse, it makes sense that this is it’s own thing seeing as the majority of those shows are now done.
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Still it would be nice to see other heroes on the series (even if they’re not the ones we want). And I’m curious if they would introduce a new Lex Luther (not John Cryer)? You can’t have Superman without a Lex Luthor just like you can’t have a Batman without a Joker.
Kinda lame, but seeing the state of the Arrowverse, seems to be the only solution.
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That said, for the first time between the CW and the WB, Superman is actually the first superhero on Earth. Meaning, they could possibly “introduce” a new hero down the road.
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Or they maybe can finally introduce a proper Batman, allowing for a proper World’s Finest story.
A little disappointing. But with the overall tone and style it does make sense. I would still want Jon Cryer to play this worlds Lex. And even if they said no crossovers it would be nice to see Earth prime Superman appear on the Flash just to show that he is still around on that earth.
Very disappointed they not only made it another earth but eliminated the possibility of there being other superheroes out there on that earth. This show wouldn’t haven’t happened without the groundwork the Arrowverse laid
you are absolutely right. there would be no superman and lois show without them setting the groundwork with tyler hoechlin on supergirl. how quickly they forget
was it so hard to just combine the earths, this multiverse thing might confuse casual viewers ALOT
I really don’t care what earth their on they better fixed in season three Clark favoritism sidling Lois and give us more Clois moments but I do wonder if they going show us different version Arrowverse superheroes or is Superman and now John just the only heroes on this earth
Aren’t you tired of posting the same comment on EVERY S&L article?
Was enjoying the finale right up until this moment. It kind of took me right out of the show. Kinda sad how The CW along with WB and DC have effectively gutted everything in the Arrowverse to the point where only The Flash is left standing. This was a franchise that people loved and it seems to be going out with a whimper. Can’t say I’m not disappointed. The network continuously shows no respect for the world Arrow helped build.
You can say the show is separate all you want but without the Arrowverse, there wouldn’t even be a Superman & Lois…not this one at least since the actors were cast on those other shows that CW doesn’t seem to care about anymore.
That’s a terrible explanation.
I would have been fine with the show being separated from Earth Prime from the start. But they didn’t do that. At the end of Crisis, Clark was shocked to hear about the twins. They reference Crisis in season 1. And then there is Diggle.
He had a storyline that was done during most of the Arrowverse shows over the last 2 years. Diggle even reference the box and Oliver.
Now there are two different Diggles. And the Clark from Crisis is on Earth Prime somewhere.
I’m thinking that this was not the original plan. And it wasn’t their fault that it had to change. So, I’m going to forgive them for that. As for Crisis and the twins, there are still the effects of Crisis on Earth Prime. So, that Clark could still have had twins as a result of Crisis. We’ve apparently never seen that Clark on Superman & Lois. So, perhaps this Clark always had twins. Or, maybe Crisis caused them both to have twins. But, all of the inconsistencies between this show and the others was getting on my nerves and I had to push it aside to enjoy the show. So, this actually makes me feel better. Flash can’t have to many more seasons. Superman & Lois might be the last one standing at some point. So, it’s better for them to not have to keep explaining why Supergirl or Flash are not stepping in to help. I mean, two worlds were literally colliding. Supergirl would have been helping if she existed in this world. So, I am a little sad about it, but I think it was a smart move.
Don’t love that they knew this show was in a separate universe and didn’t tell us. Why bait the fans?
Because they knew the fans wouldn’t like it and tried to get people to watch the show until they broke the news.
Because they *didn’t* know. This was a sloppy ret-con: they finally realized that 1) it didn’t make sense that Supergirl wasn’t responding to any of the threats, and 2) they wouldn’t be able to get Melissa Benoist to guest as Supergirl, to connect things.
From references made early on this show was clearly intended to be part of the Arrowverse, but they gave up on that and just completely ignored all of the earlier references.
Excuse my language but what was the f****ng point of the crisis crossover?!
To make money. Secondarily, to entertain people.
How does this explanation increase their profits?
Crisis still had consequences. The only things that happened as a result of Crisis were not on Superman & Lois. The Earths did merge into Earth Prime. But, at the end of Crisis, we saw that there were still other Earths as well. The heroes on Earth Prime just didn’t know about them. So, Flash and Supergirl are still on the same Earth. So, Flash still will have to reference characters like Supergirl or Martian Manhunter being offworld. Barry even talked to Alex from Supergirl on-screen at the start of its current season. At least I’m pretty sure that’s when that happened. So, there are still consequences from Crisis. It wasn’t only to set up the Superman & Lois show.
So at the end of COIE all the earths were merged into Earth-Prime but then eventually separate earths started getting created again (somehow). So we are to believe now that S&L is set on one of those newly-created earths, and not Earth-Prime? Which means this Lois & Clark aren’t the ones from the COIE crossover and even before that?
Correct. The Multiverse was regrowing based on Oliver’s efforts at the end of Crisis. S&L is on a new Earth.
Not ALL the Earths were merged. Just, as far as we know, Earth-1, Earth-38 and EARTH-BL.
That’s not the impression I got. I rewatched them last but with Oliver narrating and it makes it seem like one first was created and eventually from that an infinite number of possibilities came in the form of new earths. So before crisis there was an infinite number of earths. During crisis some were destroyed and the rest merged (but not like this S&L merge) into Earth Prime. And later a new infinite earths were created.
Also Earth-3 since Jay Garrick and Joan Williams have been depicted as apparently native to Earth-Prime.
The multiverse excuse is so lazy, cuz diggle said in season one that superman was the kinda man Oliver queen respected and sacrifice for… So that mean crisis happen
The creator and writers could argue that Diggle was talking about that earths Oliver and something different than Crisis.
I totally get what you are saying though and I agree. I don’t get why DC didn’t want this show to be based on Earth Prime. Helbing said “I totally understand DC’s position…”
OK, great. Please elaborate because the fans don’t. LOL
Helbing was told to make this change which screwed up his plans so now he’s pretending like it was a great idea when it clearly wasn’t. Don’t be surprised if he leaves to show next season. DC’s in consistency drives me crazy.
I figure it out while ago. Only way this show make sense is that is different Earth. If they be in Arrowerse and just ignore Flash Supergirl etc. that would be big continuity error. Diggle’s appearance last season confused me for a bit but than I figured out it could just be another Diggle not that one we know
Thank Rao this Superman is not the one from that woke mess of a show that started as “Supergirl.” The Superman on that show was the poorest written and powered down version I ever seen or read about in all my 61 years. He was “bested” by Kara and was relegated to C level status by writers who seemed to not know anything about the character and didn’t seem to want to. When the “stuff” hits the fan and the world is in peril, people and other heroes look to the skies for The Man Of Steel, not Supergirl or anyone else. Good riddance and I’m very happy that this powerful and well-written version of Superman on Superman & Lois has no connection to that show and the now mostly-canceled Arrowverse that created it.
If they are not part of the Arrowverse, they shouldn’t be using Arrowverse characters. Geez, they even mentioned Crisis events indirectly when Diggle appeared in Season 1, along with Lyla, Oliver Queen, and the Green Lantern ring.
So they could bring Kara into the show and make a whole arc about her arrival to Earth, they could easily recast her as well since she is a teenager when she lands.
Loved it and IMO it makes sense with so many AV shows canceled to have them as the Superman and Lois on a different earth.