What happened to the Black Lance Personell??

Until Next Time,

The Heart of The Tiger
http://www.geocities.com/hollywood/chateau/6372/

"Gee, Brain; What are we going to do tonight?"
"Same thing we do every night, Pinky; Try to log on to AOL..."

What did Confed do with the Dragons and Gen-Select weapons?

Do you think they surrendered or let themselves be captured?

Chris Reid Wing Commander CIC
Chri...@wcnews.com http://www.wcnews.com

Thinking back on it now, your right: I'm thinking that Confed *would* destroy
the Bioweapons. Such a thing is dangerious in anyone's hands, even theirs ;-)
The Dragons *might* still be around. Maybe in some secluded R&D complex...

Well, there was this one Black Lance that spoke during Tolywn's trial. "And I
couldn't go on...." ;-) I'd like to think that he's not the only one. But it
could be the only way Roberts could get a good cameo <G>

No reason to destroy perfectly good hardware like Gen-Select too,
even if they'd never use it, and that's if they seized it at all.

Yeah..

That stuff is dangerious in anyone's hands, Confed not excluded, IMO. I mean,
it not that it's under lock and key that worries me; it's who holding the
key... And what conditions might warrent it's use??!!

Well, we could assume that they either escaped and/or disappeared, or they
killed themselves outright rather then be captured. I personally like the
disappeared part; makes a better premise that they might come back again :-)

Black Ops probably pinched them. They do that quite a lot probably.

p.344 TPOF novel: "Some GE elements remained at large, hidden away where
no one could interfere."

Tolwyn did fluff up. If I ere him I just would've casually introduced
them into the crew rosters, until it was impossible for home-grown dna
people couldn't break in.

Dougie :)
http://www.erik.co.uk/dougie/characters.html
The Extensive Guide to Wing Commander Characters
http://www.erik.co.uk/dougie/swhist1.html
The Ultimate Star Wars Chronology
"It is, how you say, warmed leavings of a male cow."

Well,I still think it should be destroyed. That stuf can annilate entire
populations, maybe even species if you tweak that code right.

"GE elements " is a rather broad subject. Is it more of them in suspended
animation? More bioweapons? And that "Hidden away" thing worries me more.

Intergrate them amoung the "normal" ship population? Probably wouldn't've
worked so well. I think one of the main powers behind the Black Lance was that
no one knew about it until it was too late. But if the Black Lance survivoer
were captured, then what remained of them? They can't be let out to the public;
retaliation over Telamon would be..bloody. The can't banish them to their own
planet and let them fend for themselves. It'd be almost like that "raised in
Ivory Towers" bit. And we couldn't out right murder them, I think.
I think Paladin wondered that same problem over the Kilrathi in SM1....

>key... And what conditions might warrant it's use??!!

Well - Nephilim straight off, assuming that Confed ever captures a
Nephilim (living or dead, I dont suppose it much matters) they can
probably reconfig the genselect - and then go wipe out a planet a two
when they start kicking Nephilim butt. After all, why waste perfectly
habitable planet? The Trembler bomb isnt cost productive in the long
run, when compared to adding a new planet to the mighty, glorious
Confed.

And hell, Tolwyn could NEVER have done what he did alone. Procurement
of weaponry, R&D, training, outfitting a secret military base, snappy
black uniforms... he had to have backing somwhere. A Space Marshall's
salary woulndt cover it. So someone will make sure the GenSelect
stuff isnt destroyed. And eventually, they would have used it again -
though in a less virulent form, perhaps. Takes longer to work, that
sort of thing.

WOULD have, except for the Nephilim popping up.

Id like to see stuff based on the Dragon in WC6, and maybe Casey
asking Blair (for yes, he would return) where such fantastical
machines come from. Blair would dart his eyes about nervously, cough,
and change the subject. Hey, I can dream, cant I?

Much like Hari Seldon set up a second Foundation, there is most
probably a second Black Lance out there. After all, if you have the
money to make one secret base, its probably not that much harder to
build a second secret military base. Tolwyn didnt hang himself just to
escape the whole demeaning trial bit - oh no, he knew things. BIG
things!

Somewhere out there is a second Black Lance base, mark my words. As
for the first Black Lance group - well, I have to go with the suicide
theory. After all, they were beaten by Blair - by normals. They arent
better than us, so - they have to kill themselves because of the
shame. And hell, even if they dont - they'll have... accidents. If you
take my meaning. Cant let stuff like that get out you know. (How long
do you think Chris Roberts survived after the trial? A few days I'll
wager. Poor bastard.)

Mike

>Well, I still think it should be destroyed. That stuf can annilate entire

Thats all the more reason to keep them around! Obviously, you
represent the sane view - and I would have to agree with you, yes - it
should be destroyed. But c'mon - these are humans we are talking about
- the same race that drop nukes on their own soldiers to test the
effects of radiation... no sir - I dont think the military industrial
complex would let something like that just be destroyed. Oh, they
would destroy say 50%? The other 50% goes to Black Ops, R&D, and so on
and so forth.

Man, thats what Wing Commander: Privateer should be all about - the
seemy politcal underside of the WC universe - smuggling the GenSelect
weaponry past government safety checks aboard 'diplomatic pouches'.
Creating and funding private militias in a secret war between senators
to see who becomes El Presidente.

You could be a member of Black Lance, integrated into the normals (a
good enough reason as any to explain your excellent flying skills) ...
Ah - ferrying black ops groups to secret bases, seeing the secret
mechanics behind the processes of the Confed government - tell me you
wouldnt want to see it!

Mike

>key... And what conditions might warrent it's use??!!

Yeah.. but who's going to get ahold of it? And really.. the
Flash-pak is just like a fighter-mounted cap-ship missile. In sheer
destructive power, the pak isn't that scary.

He did start doing that. If you don't defect on the first chance,
you'll notice them on the Lexington. They'll be wearing Confed
uniforms, but they'll sit apart in the lounge and glare at Blair.

They did do this in WC4. They were disguised as regular Confed
pilots.

At least one of them did, the one on the court (chris roberts). :)

>> Delance <<

ferde...@usa.next
Fix adress for e-mail

> What did Confed do with the Dragons and Gen-Select weapons?

Dragons I don't know. Probably studying it for tech like US and
Russians with German jet planes.

Confed probably destroyed the bioweapons, just saving some for
studying a form of counter this threat.

Well, the ones that were not killed and were captured would be sent to
trial. Minor criminals and the ones that were able to cut a deal by
testifying against the rest would serve light sentences. The others
would go to heavy sentences or execution, like Tolwyn. The amount of
info they all had would probably not allow "just following orders"
defense.

Of course a large number of them would escape, and some confed people
that worked for them would be able to keep their cover. Who knows,
they might form "Neo Black Lance" and "Tolwyn was right" groups here
and there.

There aren't enought Black Lancers to populate a planet. Why banish
them? They were a renegade faction of the conederation military,
nothing more.

If they scatter and mix with the population, they might live their
lives in secrecy, but the whole GE stuff lose it's meaning since they
will probably not be able to find other GE people to breed with and
will mix um their genes.

Maybe they even ended up in a certain soon-to-be released plug =) ( Shameless
plug. And yes, I am very conceted)

Beware the power of the signature! Your friend, Doc

"We're in rough waters, and the waters are sure as hell rough when Dragons and
Morays are entering the fray." - Robert Daniels, Unknown Enemy
Website at http://www.wcunknown.free-online.co.uk/

We could put a score of them on a planet, and then send blair with a
T-bomb, then the rest would surrender :)

%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
Ed S. Filho
edfilho at openlink dot com dot br
Rio de Janeiro - Brasil

Yeah, he couldn't really go on, you know.

>
>Mike

>On 30 Jul 1999 02:28:38 GMT, mpa56...@aol.com (The Heart of The Tiger

Action it the whomever pays best. A mysterious Mr. Burrows bought the
whole lot, along with the superbase, for 100000000000000 creds.

No, they were all FIRED!. But then a mysterious Mr. Burrows hired them
all, in Gemeni Sector.

%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%

>On 30 Jul 1999 13:54:25 GMT, mpa56...@aol.com (The Heart of The

In that terrible book called 3001, Arthur Clarke mentioned a vault on
the moon where humans stashed all the dirty stuff like
bio/chemical/nuclear weapons, computer viruses, etc. Just in case.

In priv1 I smuggled Brilliance, Ultimate and slaves, but genselect is
far too much...

>Mike

Yes, we did do nuclear testing on our guys. I never said it was right. But I'd
like to think that there is some stuff that simple common sense would tell you:
"This shit is dangerious; it must be destroyed." There has to be some limits on
what can be studied and what would be studied. I mean, what would happen if
some moron dropped a certain petri dish in lab??!! And the crap got out before
they can lock it down. Got out into a populated area...

Sounds like what's happening now in the war between Republicans and
Democrats;-)

What about a personality overlay made by Black Ops? You used to be a Blace
Lance but now is a simple pilot with extraordinary skills.

>Mike

Chris, I would think that there are Black Lance still around. Not all were at
the Battle where the Vesuvius was destroyed or at Axius station when it was
overran. It appears that there would have been enough time to get some people
and technology out of there. Also I don't think that the Lance High Command
would have concentrated their resources in one place.

In Forstchen and Ohlander's WC IV novel there is a hint on page 344: "Some GE

IMHO, this seems to be a hint that the Lance is still alive and well and
perhaps they have seen the error of their ways and will come forth again to do
battle against the enemies of CONFED and regain their lost honor and atone for
their sins.

I would like to see them back in force and the Dragon flying again.

K

The Nephilim are a legit military target. Use it.

Very very tue. I think there were folks high up in the CONFED who were
sympathetic to the cause and maybe even have managed to shelter some Lance
forces.

>d like to see stuff based on the Dragon in WC6,

ME TOO!!! I love that bird........>here is most

I am really convninced of that. I wish someone would write a novel from
the BL point of view.

Maybe some died and some were caputred tried and executed as war criminals
while others drew long prison sentences.
But others escaped to integrate back into society while somewhere there is
a second Black Lance base with extensive R & D faculities and I bet they might
be working with covert ops.

K

Dear lord... It's Star Trek 2:The Wrath of Kahn all over again. A
group of genetiacaly (sp) engineered people marooned alone on a
planet. Someone stumbles over the planet twenty years later and boom,
next thing you know you have vulcans dieing and being reserected all
over the place, new planets being created and starships crashing to
forementioned planet.

:-)

TC

"Canadian and proud of it"-TC

Why can't there be civilian Nephilim. You can't just go and commit
genocide.

I happened to like that book. There were no nuclear weapons. Just
biological and electronic diseases.

>On 30 Jul 1999 08:59:19 GMT, mpa56...@aol.com (The Heart of The Tiger

Yes, but you could use it to fry the ship, and then refit it and use
it for your own purposes. Come to think of it... why couldn't you
just decontaminate the Nephilim ships and refit them with a new bridge
and engines? They never actually explode.

>On Fri, 30 Jul 1999 02:54:40 GMT, CRei...@aol.com (Christopher Reid)
>wrote:
>

Why would they have to study them. They were using confed technology?

Confed resources. But they developed tech of their own.

The Dragon was an off-shoot of the Excalibur project, according to the
WCIV novel. All of its tech (cloak, jump drive, M/AM drives ect.) had
already been developed by Confed, so there was very little that was new
or ground breaking there. It might have been a good design, but it
wasn't as ground breaking as the German jets were. (They used a far
superior type of engine to that on the British Meteor, along with an
air-frame that was well ahead what the Allies had.)

Best, Raptor

--

Those who master others have force
Those who master themselves have strength.
-Confucius

: :-)

Well, if you maroon them in the Sauron system, they can come out a few
years later with their own ships and destroy the Empire of Man <G>

Well - logically you cant. If youre sane, you cant. If youre rational
you cant. But since when have humans ever been logical, sane, or
rational.

Especially Confed humans - they faced genocide themselves not so long
ago - they will probably tend to overkill for quite some time. Besides
- the Nephilim began an unprovoked, unwarranted attack upon us, and
have made no attempt at communication. So, I dont think Confed will be
caring of Nephilim civilians.

Besides,the Nephilim are just plot-device bad guys, so we dont need to
worry about civilians for 2 ore 3 games.

Mike

You *liked* that book:)? It seemed like Clarke had written most of
the book with the whole cool (albeit cliched) future shock thing
going and then realized that he needed to tack on some sort of
silly plot, which he oh-so-cleverly ripped from Independance
Day...:)

I believe the ICIS Manual talks about how the aliens control
their ships bioelectrically... I don't think we can do that...:)
(Plus, they ships are 'living', to some extent, and when you
blow them up they stop...:)

And when they decay they get all infested with diseases and when people get
close they get all contaminated and die.

--
Barrie "Cpl Hades" Almond
bal...@wcnews.com

Hi TC,

I knew I typed a response too fast. Any Nephilim military target is legit
for targeting. Civilian areas no....I agree you can't commit genocide. There
are other methods (such as surgical strikes) to cripple the war making
potential of an enemy (after all it is the civilian industrial base that
creates the war materials) without resulting to wholesale slaughter.
You know I keep thinking back to the dropping of the A bomb on two
cities and I can't help but wonder if the same situation is here with the
Nephilim. Would CONFED be just in dropping some Bio weapons on selected
Nephilim cities as an example to get them to surrender?
Frankly I would like to see the Bio stuff destroyed. Maybe the GE was
found to have bad side effects and was dropped by all.
K

Hi Mike,

You can never justify genocide according to the human moral code. It is
morally and ethicly wrong. Sorry to say that code has been violated so many
times in human history:/
As for no Comm. well now they know our langauge and maybe some day we
willnot be so "alien" to them and there will be comm other than taunts.
Yes, CONFED is alittle paranoid but there are limits to their
utilization of certain weapons. I guess that is why I never understood Blair
dropping the T-bomb and that being OK or even the Belemoth (sp?) Project. Maybe
what makes the GE so "evil" in our eyes is that it was used against fellow
humans. I see nothing wrong with the enhancement idea but what was wrong was
the way it was to be done. Killing off human population --- no. After all you
could be kiling off another Hawking, Hellen Keller, etc. Gene splicing and
other genetic engineering techniques fine. I guess what drove them to do it
was fear of another invasion when the Terrans were really too weak to
effectively counter it and was trying to do a quick fix.

K

At least Blair would have a better death scene <G>

>:-)

Well, *if* the Nephilim are treuly like bugs, then they might possess a
collective, hive-like conscienceness. Which means that they are incapable of
having what we'd call a "Civilian" population. Maybe a few Drones or Workers
but that's about it as far a s I know. So if that were true, the
"Non-Combatants" issue might be considered invalid.
But what if the Gen-select works aginst us when we use it? Okay, I'd like to
think that by 2700, we'd master the mapping of our DNA. Learning to look for
certain things and deformaties and such. That took a long while. We know
nothing about their DNA. What if the nano-bots ticker with some thing that
wasn't meant to be tinked. In the TPOF novel, the 'bot also tweaked DNA code
(pg. 286), what if we did something that made them meaner then we could
handle?!
Hell, the wrekage were dangerious after we killed them.
"I want a thicker flight suit.."

>Mike

And they would have been justified using both the Temblor at the end
of the Kilrathi War or GenSelect on the Nephilim. In Both WCP and SO,
if you don't kick the bugs' asses, they'll gut Confed.

Hehe, a special case that presents itself again in WCP and SO.

And would you like to serve on a ship with gooey oozing walls that
was once contaminated with a highly leathal virus?

No, Confed authorized no bioweapon research. They might have used
Confed resources to develop the technology, but the result wasn't
Confed.

Why do people keep addressing posts to me? :) I didn't write the
above text.

It hinted there were some elements in existence in '73. Who knows
what could have happened after that? The comment in WCP about the Black
Lance being dead and gone seems to hint that the Lance is dead and gone.

Hi Chris,

Who knows is right! Maybe folks in WCP only thought that the Black Lance
was dead. Do they actually have proof?
There maybe highly classified documents in CONFED that say otherwise. I think
they are still around perhaps in an
"uncharted system" or in an area that is quarantined or a badlands area and
they are doing their won thing and existing till some day they are discovered
or must come out and fight again/
The Lance is not dead yet.

K

It's only a game...... :)
no, I reckon since the Nephilim are blatantly a war-bred race
(especially if you read the ICIS manual) that everyone in their species
contributes to the ar effort in one way or another, so any target would
be legit. And it might be like the Kilrathi situation, if it's eithe rus
or them, then the ends justify the means, just like the A-bomb I think
did.

Dougie :)
http://www.erik.co.uk/dougie/characters.html
The Extensive Guide to Wing Commander Characters
http://www.erik.co.uk/dougie/swhist1.html
The Ultimate Star Wars Chronology
"Kenny, what's a dildo?"

> K

I used to clean school bathrooms as punishment, so I'm almost used to the above
situation :-)

--
Searching for a PBEM role playing game? A game about magical struggle in
a world
of diplomacy, intrigue and power? Check out this one:
http://www.lemuria.org/SpellMaster
We are always searching for new players!
PS: Please mention that Zasod did invite you.

I agree. Even if the Nephilim have been "inhuman" in their treatment of
humans, there is no reason to sink to the same level as them. Dropping
bio-weps on them would make us just as bad they are. Besides, we've
kicked their backsides *twice* without using those weapons.

dropped. Using the T-bomb might have been morally evil, but I think of
it as a neccessary evil. If it comes to a case of us or them, my moral
code is flexible enough that I'd much rather it was them. ;-)

Personally, what makes the GE so "evil" in my eyes was that it was so
totally unneccessary. There was no driving need to use the GE (as there
was with the T-bomb.) Not only that, it's far too close to what the
Nazis were planning (a Master Race created by selective breeding, and of
course, the elimination of "inferior peoples") for me to swallow it.

> K

Warning: very long genetics rant coming up. If you think that genes are
pants made out of denim, or live in bottles and grant wishes......well,
maybe you should keep reading. You might learn something. ;-)

Personally, I think the whole idea of gentically enhancing the human
race is a non-starter. Tolwyn f**ked up with his Gen-Select concept, for
the very simple reason that there is *no such thing* as the perfect
genotype. Natural selection favours the genotype that is most perfectly
suited to the *current* enviornment. Because the enviornment humans are
living in is always changing though (especially as they move to
differant worlds ect.), and there are so many factors that affect
survival, there is no genetic code that can be suited to all of them. A
genetic trait that is a survival advantage under one set of conditions
can be a major disadvantage in another, and vice versa.

A good example of that is skin colour. Have you ever wondered why
Caucasians have fair skin, while people from Africa/Asia/Polynesia ect.
have much darker skin? It's because of the amount of melanin in our
skins, which is genetically determined. When human beings first
originated in Africa, we were in a climate where we were exposed to
massive amounts of UV radiation. Melanin protects from UV (and the skin
cancers it causes), so natural selection favoured genes that code for
high amounts of melanin, and hence a dark skin.

However, once humans started migrating out of Africa, and into colder
regions like Europe and North Asia, they moved into a climate where they
were exposed to far less sunlight. Here, having lots of melanin was a
survival *disadvantage.* That's because melanin also intereferes with
the synthesis of a chemical called Vitamin D in the skin (the process
needs sunlight as a catalyst), which in turns leads to problems with
bone formation. In people in these areas, natural selection will favour
low amounts of melanin, and a fair skin. Like I said, what's an
advantage in one set of conditions is a disadvantage in another, and
vice versa.

Another good example of that is sickle cell anemia. This is a genetic
disorder that alters the shape of red blood cells. The cells go from
their normal shape (flat and round, like a coin) to a curved 'crescent
moon' or 'sickle' shape. They can't carry oxygen as well as normal blood
cells, and can clog up very small blood vessals. Normally, of course,
this is a major survival disadvantage, and is selected against, which
means the gene is very rare in a population. In people living in
tropical areas with where malaria is common (and in African-Americans),
this gene is much more common, with as much as 40% of the population
carrying it. That's because having the sickle trait protects from
malaria (a major killer in the tropics), and is a survival advantage, so
its selected for. Again, what's a disadvantage in one set of conditions
is an advantage in another.

It doesn't end there. Genes which allow a person to metabolise toxins
very efficiently can also cause problems treating some diseases, because
the same enzymes that break down toxins can also break down drugs. These
enzymes can also turn harmless substances into cancer causing agents.
Some genes can be an advantage or a disadvantage depending on what foods
a population has to eat. (Good examples are genes that code for lactose
intolerance in Asians, and gluten allergies in humans.) Genes that prime
the immune system to be extra efficient against some pathogens can also
lead to auto-immune diseases (where the immune system attacks your own
body.) Again, these genes can be an advantage or a disadvantage, all
depending on the conditions you find yourself in.

In short, there is no perfect genetic type, because there are so many
differant types of enviornments and conditions that we might find
ourselves in. What is important is the ability to *adapt*, which means
having a lot of variety in our gene pool. Any attempt to create a
"perfect" or "genetically enhanced" population (be it through the
Gen-Select device or genetic engineering) takes away variety from the
gene pool, and takes away our ability to adapt. In the long run, that
does far more harm than good to our chances of surviving as a species.

Best, Raptor (who uses Tolwyn debates as motivation for going to those
eight o'clock genetics lectures.)

--

"Starscream!!!!" -Megatron, after being thrown into deep space by
Starscream in Transformers: The Movie

"In space, no-one can hear you scream, but we can all hear you
Starscream." -Transformers: The Movie, MST 3000 version.

Arrgh! Make that "gluten alergies in Caucasians." That typo makes me
look like a member of the Aryan Brotherhood. ;-)

Best, Raptor"

Maybe they hid on Telamon. I doubt anyone would check there and the
bioweapons wouldn't affect them.

But then he'd come back several times.

>
>>:-)

%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
Ed S. Filho
edfilho at openlink dot com dot br
Rio de Janeiro - Brasil

That wasn't really a book, no real stroy, just a catalogue for
Clarke's studies on futurology.

%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%

>TC <tc...@REMOVEhotmail.com> wrote in <37a2844f....@news.axion.net>:

I have to admit, it was no where near as good as his other books (I
have read most of them) but it was a nice, interesting read.

TC

____________________________________
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|*******| | \/ \/ | |*******|
|*******| | | |*******|
|*******| \ / |*******|
|*******| \________/ |*******|
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|*******|____________________|*******|

That sig didn't really work did it :-)

>Yes, we did do nuclear testing on our guys. I never said it was right. But I'd
>like to think that there is some stuff that simple common sense would tell you:
>"This shit is dangerious; it must be destroyed." There has to be some limits on
>what can be studied and what would be studied. I mean, what would happen if
>some moron dropped a certain petri dish in lab??!! And the crap got out before
>they can lock it down. Got out into a populated area...

Argh! Its Captain Tripps! *cough cough* :) That'd be an interesting
game premise in itself - kinda like Crusader, trying to contain the
virus, and find a cure before the species dies...

>>You could be a member of Black Lance, integrated into the normals (a
>>good enough reason as any to explain your excellent flying skills) ...
>>Ah - ferrying black ops groups to secret bases, seeing the secret
>>mechanics behind the processes of the Confed government - tell me you
>>wouldnt want to see it!
>
>What about a personality overlay made by Black Ops? You used to be a Blace
>Lance but now is a simple pilot with extraordinary skills.

That is a very, very, VERY cool idea... build that into Privateer 3
with all the other political infighting and you could have one
incredible game. Some way through the game, you discover that you were
Black Lance, and did horrible things. So what do you do? Do you go
back to Black Lance? Or do you stay on the straight and narrow? (as
much as a Privateer can)

That would make my day to be given a choice like that :)

Mike

>> Confed resources. But they developed tech of their own.
>>
>> >> Delance <<
>>
>> ferde...@usa.next
>> Fix adress for e-mail
>
>The Dragon was an off-shoot of the Excalibur project, according to the
>WCIV novel. All of its tech (cloak, jump drive, M/AM drives ect.) had
>already been developed by Confed, so there was very little that was new
>or ground breaking there. It might have been a good design, but it
>wasn't as ground breaking as the German jets were.

The Avro Arrow would of killed the German Jets. *mumble* stupid
Canadian government *mumble, mumble* stopping perfectly good military
project *mumble, grumble*

TC

I'm sorry, I was refering to the Dragons.

Whenever we are at war we are facing total and utter destruction.
That doesn't mean that we should sacrifice our moral code. If we did
that, we would be worse than the enemy that we were fighting.

Mike,

Me too...bring the Lance back and the Dragons!!!!! Those Black uniforms
looked nice and military. Very crisp look.

Ten years is a long time, something would've surfaced. And the
Confeds' gotta a lotta time in their hands, they can even cruise
around with Megacarriers chasing pirates. They had plenty of time and
resources to hunt down the BL. Not to mention that the BL wuld have
surfaced to fight the Aliens, that was their objective when they were
first created.

>
> K

Hey, dont get me wrong - I totally agree with you. Genocide can never
be justified, and Im not trying too - but humans being humans, they
dont care so much about justification and such. They like their toys,
especially the ones that go boom :)

Possibly, but not within the scope of the next 3-4 games I think. When
Confed crushes the Nephilim beneath its steel-capped boots, then maybe
they can talk :)

>dropping the T-bomb and that being OK or even the Belemoth (sp?) Project. Maybe

>humans. I see nothing wrong with the enhancement idea but what was wrong was

>effectively counter it and was trying to do a quick fix.

I can understand the use of the T-Bomb and Behemoth. What we must
consider is that the feelings at the time were that this was it.
Humanity was going to die. Reports about evacuation plans for another
galaxy - all that sort of stuff was rife. Humanity was up against the
wall - and nobody fights harder than when they are up against the
wall.

Granted, there is no justification for genocide, and Im not saying I
agree - but I understand.

Mike

Dougie,

I kind of doubt that. The survivors would have probably lynched them. That
is one place a Lance raider would not wnat to crash land on:)

K

That's sort of what happened in Privateer 2.. :)

Chris Reid Wing Commander CIC
Chri...@wcnews.com http://www.wcnews.com

How did my reply get cut here?

Yet when it comes down to it, humans sacrifice anything it takes to
win. :) We farfing totally blew up three planets within a matter of
weeks when we got desperate in 2669, and the Behemoth and Temblor
weren't the only planet-buster projects Confed was actively engaging.

: TC

: ____________________________________

That looks like a tulip...
Are we all from Holland now? <G>

When in WC:P and Secret Ops did we face total and utter destruction? We
kicked the Nephilim's arses both times with conventional weapons, which
was why there was no justification for using weapons of mass
destruction. At the end of the Kilrathi War though, our fleet was
shattered, the Kilrathi fleet was less than 48 hours from launching an
attack on Earth, and *they* had proven that they were more than willing
to exterminate us. (As in Fleet Action.) In that situation, we were
justifed in using the T-Bomb, becuase it was us or them. The T-Bomb was
our weapon of *last resort*, when we had no other options left. It might
not be morally acceptable, but it was justifiable.

Best, Raptor

Not by a long chalk. We had options other than using a weapon of mass
destruction in WC:P and SO. At the end of the Kilrathi War, we had *no*
other options, apart from rolling over and playind dead for the
Kilrathi.

Best, Raptor

Oh, I don't know. They would probably give the Black Lancers a fair
trial before they executed them. And of course, they would go through
all the formalities first. Flaying, mutilation, castration...;-)

That's a big if, Chris. As we saw in the games, the Nephilim were
handily beaten by Confed's forces. Assuming you play with a reasonable
amount of competance, you can win. It wasn't like the end of the
Kilrathi War, where our options were either to use the T-Bomb or be
exterminated ourselves. We had no way of winning otherwise.

You played through WCP without dying once? Lance Casy was a critical
factor in turning back the Nephilim (because if he dies, the Nephilim
reach Earth). I wouldn't call that a big if. Everyone died while
playing the game. The only reason the Nephilim didn't reach Earth was
because of the Almighty Save/Load Feature.

>Christopher Reid wrote:

How do we know that? Because there's an endgame where the Kilrathi
reach Earth? Well there's one where the Nephilim reach Earth in WCP and
SO.

The Black Lance were not stupid obviously, except in the area of believing
that one person could bring them out into the public. The Lance were
basically being created all through the end part of the Kilrathi War, I mean
look at the average age they had or appeared, that would put them at least
25 years in the making. So what were they really doing for 25 years or more.
Remember any of those days in the KW when ships would just dissappear for no
reason, hmmm. Also the Lance have all these ships, now we know they were
built up over time, plus the bio weapons, that took R&D in itself, didn't
just happen over night. Now we come to when they start surfacing. Except the
only problem is that only the military side has surfaced, not the R&D side.
The military side is not wiped out as many think. Common sense will tell
you, why kill them off when they would make good soldiers, and if the ones
that didn't they were after all programmed basically, so why couldn't they
be re-programmed to perform a task or tasks. Also you've got all those R&D
guys that probably weren't completely Lance, they were more than likely
brought in from Confed, and they more than likely found their ways back into
Confed as well. Plus you've also got to consider this too, one of the WCIV
endings show Blair as the Adm, and he uses Black Lance forces to take care
of a pirate problem, hmmm, where did they come from if the remaining BL
forces were hunted down and dispatched. Also you've got those that weren't
in Axius at the time they raided that base and got it back into Confed
control, which even now I'd say that it is still lightly guarded, and just
imagine how many dragon's, flashpaks, and bio weapons are still in that
thing. Plus all those lancers that were out in other systems doing their
duties, ones that may not have even found out yet that the base was taken
and that Tolwyn killed himself. And then there is the possibility that even
what we saw as Tolwyn hanging himself wasn't actually T. I mean they were
after all doing GE programs and cloning around that time preriod. Don't you
think there could have been the slight possibility that somewhere in a very
hidden installation, that T may still be alive and well and what we thought
was him hanging himself, was a GE product or clone. So there is another
twist. Back to where did they all go?

Well if I was a wanted race, why the hell would I go back into direct Confed
Space. I think not. Which brings me to this conclusion.

There are BL forces out there still using what they have left of their
technology, in the WC universe timespan, they have been finding other ways
to adapt their tech to ships that they are probably finding in graveyards
that they are rebuilding. Plus as was said many times throughout the games,
you don't put all your eggs into one basket, so I'd say there were smaller
bases, or even planet side bases that Confed overlooked, maybe even
overlooked them deliberately, who really knows. There again though you still
have all these forces out there. Now common sense would also tell you that
some of the BL probably got the signal of news about T being dead after the
courtmartial, and have decided to try to rebuild what they can, and to not
act that way ever again, these would probably be what was left of the R&D
guys, and some of the few military aspect of them.

Now what we have here is two groups of the same people. One side is wanting
revenge for actions against them, the other side is wanting to let it go,
and try to rebuild their society large enough or to try to get some
acceptance back into Confed, cause they would know that they couldn't go
forever without some kind of support. So in my honest opinion, I believe
that there were good and bad lance, and since we are at or around 10 years
after when they first appeared, I would say it would be about time some of
them started showing up again. Hell whatever happened to the bearcat, there
is a ship they could have been refitting to their needs to do until the time
was right.

Commodore Scorpion
"To live with honor is one thing, but to live with a code is another!"

?

Both games have losing endgames where Nephilim fleets reach Earth.
Of course Confed couldn't have known that, but the chance was more than
possible.

Well.. the TBomb ended up being the last resort.. but there were
multiple projects whose end result would have been the destruction of
Kilrah had they been successful.

Didn't we kidnap Dr. Brody so she could make the Gen-Select?

Can you think of any game where you didn't have to use the save/reload
feature? That's a normal part of game playing, and shouldn't be taken as
an indication of enemy strength. The reason that Casey was so crucial
was *precisely* because it was a game. That not withstanding though,
Confed threw back two Nephilim assaults in a mtter of weeks, something
they could never do with the Kilrathi. Even with Blair's help, we were
still fighting the Kilrathi for 40 odd years, and towards the end, we
were still getting our butts kicked.

Best, Raptor

--

In WC III, the only endgames are where we use the T-Bomb, or the Earth
gets wiped out. There were *no* other ways to survive except by using
the T-bomb. In WC:P, we *can* win without using a weapon of mass
destruction. That's the point I keep making. The only time when using a
weapon of mass destruction can be justified is when there's no other way
for us to survive. If there's any other way, then we have to take it.

Possible, yes, but not inevitable like it was in WC III. The point is
that weapons of this kind have to be the *last resort*, not simply
something we pull out whenever there's a threat.

And they are all weapons of last resort. No-one was seriously
contemplating using those weapons till after Fleet Action, when our
forces were shattered, and there was no other way for us to survive.
Besides, developing a weapon is not the same as using it. We spent the
past 50 years building enough nukes to sterilise the Earth seven times
over, but no-one's been stupid enough to launch an all out nucleur war.

Actually, I believe Paladin starts talking about how he
thinks we're going to have to commit genocide to win the
war as early as WC1...

Plus, the bugs *were* wiping out out entire planets...:)

--
Ben "I was stealing road signs from the town of Blair before
stealing road signs from the town of Blair was cool" Lesnick
http://www.wcnews.com/

The survivors ould have mostly commited suicide (that's hat Dekker said)
if they hadn't left. Plus there's only one small settlement on the
planet. I'm sure they could hide somewhere else.

Dougie :)
http://www.erik.co.uk/dougie/characters.html
The Extensive Guide to Wing Commander Characters (I need feedback on
this, please!)
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The Ultimate Star Wars Chronology
"Kenny, what's a dildo?"