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SOAR Budget (A Long Guestimate)

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prog...@mindspring.com

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Jan 7, 2000, 3:00:00 AM1/7/00
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What surprises me more than anything is the initial *negative*
reaction to SOAR...first time I've ever seen a new festival announced
where that has happened! Why didn't the Irish Bastard jump all over
NEARFest last year -- that was obviously a calculated move to make
money -- bring over Spock's Beard and IQ and put it only an hour away
from NYC and Philly...according to Sean's standards Rob and Chad had
*no* altruistic motives for NEARFest...in fact, establishing it as a
non-profit festival was a way of *covering* their personal assets.

It seems as though there are many mis-conceptions about the
profitability of progressive rock festivals. Let's take a look as
what's gone in the past:

PROGFEST (a for-profit festival)
1993: 2-day event cut back to one day due to lack of ticket sales.
Sure to have lost money, but to what degree I have never heard.
1994: Arguably one of the best line-ups ever. Solaris, Echolyn,
Anekdoten, Anglagard, Sebastian Hardie, Halloween, etc. I heard
Solaris cost nearly $10,000 by themselves(!); if that's true, I see no
way the fest could have broken even.
1995: White Willow, Arsnova, Deus Ex Machina, Pendragon and others
showcase a great diversity of music and talent. Again, I have not
heard if the festival covered it's expenses, but my guess is that it
did not since Greg Walker then turned control over to Shawn Ahearn.

[note that Greg Walker is a major CD retailer, and much
of the expense of the festival might have been 'earned'
back through CD sales]

1996: no ProgFest
1997: Shawn Ahearn takes over and brings us Le Orme, Arena,
Spock's Beard, Flower Kings and John Wetton. Supposedly the festival
cleared $50, but that number sounds strangely suspicious to me.
1998: No ProgFest
1999: Magma, Porcupine Tree, Par Lindh, Buckethead, Bondage Fruit,
etc. So many line-up changes and even name-changes plagued this
event. No firm numbers for the amount the festival lost, but enough
to sour Shawn Ahearn on doing another festival (supposedly).

PROGSCAPE (a for-profit festival)
1994: Anekdoten, Mastermind, echolyn, Discipline, Iluvatar and
Cloud Nine. A one-day marathon sponsored by Of Sound Mind (Chris
Lamka). Unsure the financial damage, but had to have been several
thousand lost.
1995: no ProgScape
1996: Iluvatar, Eclat, Miriodor, Braindance, Porcupine Tree, etc.
Lost maybe five or six thousand(?) I believe Chris is still paying
off some of these debts. Eventually had to move retail business into
his home. No current plans for another festival.

PROGDAY (a for-profit festival)
1995: one-day festival featuring echolyn, Mastermind, Cloud Nine,
Timothy Pure & Discipline. Lost approx. $2500
1996: expanded to 2-days; Deus Ex Machina, Squonk Opera, Iluvatar,
Tristan Park, Arsnova, Galadriel, etc. Foolishly anticipated huger
crowd; hired professional video crew, etc. etc. Lost approx. $10,000
1997: Concentrated on cutting edge US bands, but still brought
Finisterre & Providence from overseas. Net loss approx. $2500 (to
have been recouped from live CD release of Finisterre...until dispute
with Mellow developed).
1998: Rob LaDuca begins ProgDay Fundraising Auctions (almost $2200
in total donations). Par Lindh and Flower Kings, A Piedi Nudi, Cast,
etc. Net loss approx. $500.
1999: ProgDay Auctions raise nearly $2500. Emphasis on new and
diverse line-up: Thinking Plague, Apocalypse, CAP, DAP, etc.
Initially a break even event...however, disputes with LaQuinta hotel
reveal a $1500 loss.

BAJAPROG (a for-profit festival)
1997: a very small affair with just Cast and Land's End. Surely to
have broken even since not a 'true' festival.
1998: 1st real BajaProg. Tied into Mexicali's city celebration;
supposedly sound system, venue, etc. all picked up by the city.
1999: After Crying, Quidam, Halloween, Arena, Ten Jinn, etc.
Several bands sponsored by respective record labels. No official
word, though likely to have broken even.

PROGEST (a for-profit festival)
1997: Arena, Visible Wind, etc. A 3 or 4-day evening-only festival
that appears to have been wildly successful both artistically and
financially.
1998: Over the course of almost 2 weeks, Le Orme, Clepsydra, IQ,
Timothy Pure and others perform. Apparently IQ is the only
well-attended show. Must have lost money since no new show is
planned.

NEARFEST (a not-for-profit festival)
1999: After hearing numerous complaints from Northerners about how
far it is to travel to ProgDay, Rob LaDuca and Chad Hutchins team up
to test the viability of a prog festival in the Northeast. Keeping
things small (400-seat auditorium), and well-organized, the first
NEARFest proves to be a huge success both financially and
artistically. Rumors say the fest cleared more than $1,000; money
re-invested to expand festival in 2000.


I've gone to great lengths to look at each festival and it's history
in order to show that aside from BajaProg and NEARFest, no other prog
festival (despite being 'for profit') has ever actually turned a
profit. So the idea that Captain MDA (Stephen Ellis) is doing a
'neo-prog' festival in order to cash in is laughable...even more so
because it's in North Carolina!

Let's take a look at what *might* be the budget for SOAR (based only
on my own experiences...actual SOAR numbers are likely to be
different:

Band Budget:
$500 Salem Hill
$1500 Ten Jinn
$2500 Flower Kings
$3000 Arena
$2500 Spock's Beard

$1000 Venue (McKnight Hall)

$1500 Sound System (very conservative estimate)

$1000 Advertizing

$2000 Miscellaneous Production Expenses

$15,500 total SOAR budget

at $65/ticket, 238 people will be needed in order to break even. That
doesn't seem so bad...but with my experience of doing ProgDay in NC
for 5 years now, I know it will be *extremely* difficult to achieve
that kind of attendance (for example, ProgDay '99 had about 260 total
paid for the weekend).

I project SOAR will get 150 paid attendance...that means our
money-grubbing Captain stands to lose close to $6,000. I'll do what I
can to spread the word on SOAR and maybe if others here with websites
promoting progressive rock will do the same, then perhaps we can
minimize the losses, or even achieve the break even point.

Sorry if I've rambled on a bit long...I've had the flu for two weeks,
and today is the first day that I feel remotely 'human' ;)

Peter <prog...@mindspring.com>

TOIB

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Jan 7, 2000, 3:00:00 AM1/7/00
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prog...@mindspring.com awakens Beta 14 OK:

> What surprises me more than anything is the initial *negative*
> reaction to SOAR...first time I've ever seen a new festival announced
> where that has happened! Why didn't the Irish Bastard jump all over
> NEARFest last year -- that was obviously a calculated move to make
> money --

As a not-for-profit organization? :)

> from NYC and Philly...according to Sean's standards Rob and Chad had
> *no* altruistic motives for NEARFest...

I'm not sure what you're implying, Peter. I don't even know Rob
and Chad, and I'd certainly have no reason for putting them under a
different light than SOARFest, whose promoters I also don't know. Of
course, you *do* know them, although I guess accusing you of coloring your
perspective the way you have done so mine wouldn't be very appropriate,
would it? :)

If you disagree with what I wrote, fine. Don't misrepresent it.
I was rather clear in my post about my belief in the altruistic intentions
of all of these festivals... to date.

> It seems as though there are many mis-conceptions about the
> profitability of progressive rock festivals. Let's take a look as
> what's gone in the past:

> 1994: Arguably one of the best line-ups ever. Solaris, Echolyn,


> Anekdoten, Anglagard, Sebastian Hardie, Halloween, etc. I heard
> Solaris cost nearly $10,000 by themselves(!); if that's true, I see no
> way the fest could have broken even.

Didn't Solaris play one of the festivals last year?

> 1998: Over the course of almost 2 weeks, Le Orme, Clepsydra, IQ,
> Timothy Pure and others perform. Apparently IQ is the only
> well-attended show. Must have lost money since no new show is
> planned.

IQ actually played three nights. The first two were well-attended;
the last they offered half-price tickets to anyone who had been there the
night before, so obviously they weren't able to draw strongly for three
shows in a row.

The festival was flawed from the outset by being 10 days long; it
was pretty well impossible to see more than one "headlining" band, because
their shows were usually 3-4 days apart. I'm not sure if the festival lost
money -- they had Flower Kings back in September of that year,
incidentally -- but the death of the festival was Sylvain Dery's leaving
the d'Auteuil, and the fact that the people in charge now are moving away
from prog.

I've noticed how in your "analysis" you've generally had to guess,
in most cases other than your own, whether the festival broke even or not.
Hey, maybe you're right in all cases. Maybe you're not.

> So the idea that Captain MDA (Stephen Ellis) is doing a
> 'neo-prog' festival in order to cash in is laughable...

[Peter's guesstimated budget]

> $15,500 total SOAR budget

> at $65/ticket, 238 people will be needed in order to break even.

...with a venue seating 600, that's a best case of over $20,000
profit. "If they get Saga, they're going bigger." Does this sound like
people who are looking at breaking even as *extremely* difficult? No,
because if that were the case they could stay in the same venue, sell it
out, and have $20,000 left over minus Saga's cost (which could be a
significant chunk of this depending on the band's opinion of their
worth). Unless Saga were to cost more than $20,000 to bring over, changing
venues would be a no-brainer.. unless you were expecting to *need* a
bigger venue.

> I project SOAR will get 150 paid attendance...that means our
> money-grubbing Captain stands to lose close to $6,000.

That would be unfortunate. Like I said, it's not like I want
*anyone* to lose their shirt. This place must be pretty remote if a lineup
with three former festival headliners isn't even going to match your
attendance for this year.

--
Sean McFee
Ground and Sky: http://pantheon.yale.edu/~bcw24/
My progressive rock site: www.nexus.carleton.ca/~sean/prog

prog...@mindspring.com

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Jan 7, 2000, 3:00:00 AM1/7/00
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smc...@chat.carletonSP.AMca (TOIB) wrote:
>prog...@mindspring.com awakens Beta 14 OK:
>> What surprises me more than anything is the initial *negative*
>> reaction to SOAR...first time I've ever seen a new festival announced
>> where that has happened! Why didn't the Irish Bastard jump all over
>> NEARFest last year -- that was obviously a calculated move to make
>> money --
> As a not-for-profit organization? :)

There are a lot of non-profit people who make *way* more money than us
'profiteers'. Not implying anything on NEARFest...only not-for-profit
was their way of not losing their shirts; I'd discussed taking ProgDay
'non-profit' long before NEARFest ever came around. To me, there's
too much 'red tape' involved, and I prefer to keep things as
'uncomplicated' as possible.

> I'm not sure what you're implying, Peter. I don't even know Rob
>and Chad, and I'd certainly have no reason for putting them under a
>different light than SOARFest, whose promoters I also don't know. Of
>course, you *do* know them, although I guess accusing you of coloring your
>perspective the way you have done so mine wouldn't be very appropriate,
>would it? :)

I just thought it was funny that you 'attacked' SOAR so quickly, and
in retrospect thought it was funny you never said anything about
NEARfest when they first started up. Everything you've said about
SOAR could just as easily be levelled against NEAFest a year ago...or
ProgDay 5 years ago ;)

>> 1994: Arguably one of the best line-ups ever. Solaris, Echolyn,
>> Anekdoten, Anglagard, Sebastian Hardie, Halloween, etc. I heard
>> Solaris cost nearly $10,000 by themselves(!); if that's true, I see no
>> way the fest could have broken even.

> Didn't Solaris play one of the festivals last year?

They performed at NEARFest...did they pay $10,000? Absolutely not. I
don't know what Rob paid, but I know Greg Walker was a *huge* fan of
theirs and was willing to shell out more money for them (wasn't it a
're-union' show of sorts at the time?). Likewise, BajaProg apparently
didn't pay a penny for After Crying (their biggest success) last year;
their Hungarian label picked up all expenses. Likewise for me, in '98
when A Piedi Nudi covered all their travel expenses. Deals like these
are what enable these festivals to exist.

> The festival was flawed from the outset by being 10 days long; it
>was pretty well impossible to see more than one "headlining" band, because
>their shows were usually 3-4 days apart. I'm not sure if the festival lost
>money -- they had Flower Kings back in September of that year,
>incidentally -- but the death of the festival was Sylvain Dery's leaving
>the d'Auteuil, and the fact that the people in charge now are moving away
>from prog.

That explains a lot!

> I've noticed how in your "analysis" you've generally had to guess,
>in most cases other than your own, whether the festival broke even or not.
>Hey, maybe you're right in all cases. Maybe you're not.

I know I'm right about festivals losing money. Now, something like
ProgFest where Greg Walker makes ooby-gobs of money off of CD Sales;
those profits probably help stabilize the loss the festival endured.

>[Peter's guesstimated budget]


>> $15,500 total SOAR budget
>> at $65/ticket, 238 people will be needed in order to break even.

> ...with a venue seating 600, that's a best case of over $20,000
>profit. "If they get Saga, they're going bigger." Does this sound like
>people who are looking at breaking even as *extremely* difficult? No,
>because if that were the case they could stay in the same venue, sell it
>out, and have $20,000 left over minus Saga's cost (which could be a
>significant chunk of this depending on the band's opinion of their
>worth). Unless Saga were to cost more than $20,000 to bring over, changing
>venues would be a no-brainer.. unless you were expecting to *need* a
>bigger venue.

I think here we might be on common ground...I think Captain MDA is a
dreamer if he thinks he can get more than 600 people in Charlotte for
Saga. Actually, you might have a better perspective on the popularity
of Saga. I don't see them having much of a 'presence' in the US. I
thought "Generation 13" was a brilliant album, but not much else of
thiers has greatly appealed to me. I think SOAR is going to run into
the same problems the St. Louis shows for Barry Palmer ran into last
summer -- the promoter overestimated the drawing power of his event.
Same thing happened more recently when someone tried to bring Peter
Banks over for a show in CT.

> That would be unfortunate. Like I said, it's not like I want
>*anyone* to lose their shirt. This place must be pretty remote if a lineup
>with three former festival headliners isn't even going to match your
>attendance for this year.

Charlotte is a major Southern city. The problem will lie in promotion
and publicity. If a major rock station co-produced the show, then
there's an outside chance of success on the order of 300 or 400
people...but in the 5 years I've done ProgDay, major rock stations
don't give a sh*t...unless you pay them mega-bucks. Let's face it --
as famous as Flower Kings, Spocks Beard or Arena are on rmp...they
don't mean jack to the common population.

Peter

Steve

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Jan 7, 2000, 3:00:00 AM1/7/00
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If I may just interject something.

What makes EITHER side [whether pro or con the idea of a strictly
neo-progressive festival] so certain that more experimental bands are LESS of a
draw than most neo-prog or straight symphonic acts?

Let's take away the obvious biggies, ok?
I'm not talking about Marillion or other major label acts.

And not even say Spock's Beard, who are VERY popular.

Because I'm not going to mention that "avant garde" heavyweights: Laurie
Anderson, Kronos, John Zorn, etc.

I'm talking about the mid-level [& even smaller bands].

But what makes everyone so certain that, say, Tenn Jinn or Iluvatar are so much
popular in terms of sales than, say Thinking Plague, Present or Magma?

I realize that a lot of people DIDN'T like Thinking Plague at Progday. At the
same time, while it was really wonderful for Peter Renfro to invite them, they
*were* a bit of a "fish out of water" with the rest of the more
symphonic/progressive/neo-progressive style acts featured at Progday '99.

Since they were the only out & out "outside" style band, maybe a lot of their
fans stayed away because they didn't want to sit through the rest of what the
festival had to offer?

The Victo Fest in Canada has programmed a truly "outside" music style festival
for years [featuring a few of the avant garde progressive acts, but mostly
featuring more improvisational/avant acts such as Fred Frith/John
Zorn/ROVA/Otomo Yoshihide, etc]. Their attendence has better figures than ANY
of the "progrock" festivals mentioned in Peter Renfro's posting. Often their
large weekend shows get close to 1,000 people. The Univers Zero show had
slightly over 500 people attending.

I saw 200-300 people attend U Totem's show in Montreal in 1990.

And, at least based on what many folks told me, Miriodor was the reason that as
many folks came to Progscape in Baltimore, '96 as they did.

So, the only point I am trying to make is that these are pretty good attendence
figures. At least as good as for many of these festivals that are being touted
as "safe music" and "safe bets".

While I don't want to become a concert promoter to prove this, I question the
general wisdom that has been through this entire thread that a festival of more
avant-style progressive acts would do so much worse - or if it would do worse
at all - than a festival of all "neo" or "symphonic" bands.

Just food for thought.


Steve F.

[remove .nospam to reply]

TOIB

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Jan 7, 2000, 3:00:00 AM1/7/00
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prog...@mindspring.com awakens Beta 14 OK:
> smc...@chat.carletonSP.AMca (TOIB) wrote:

> There are a lot of non-profit people who make *way* more money than us
> 'profiteers'. Not implying anything on NEARFest...only not-for-profit
> was their way of not losing their shirts; I'd discussed taking ProgDay
> 'non-profit' long before NEARFest ever came around.

Sure, fine. Actually I'm surprised that you wouldn't do this, red
tape aside, if it would afford you personal protection from losses.

> I just thought it was funny that you 'attacked' SOAR so quickly, and
> in retrospect thought it was funny you never said anything about
> NEARfest when they first started up. Everything you've said about
> SOAR could just as easily be levelled against NEAFest a year ago...or
> ProgDay 5 years ago ;)

I don't agree. NEARFest had Solaris; already that's one non-neo
band, although still rather rhythmically simple. There was also Hand Farm
and Nathan Mahl, who are closer to fusion than neo, some bands that are
closer to prog-metal if anything... this year's lineup has Happy the Man,
Anekdoten, DFA, Balletto, Par Lindh.

While you had a less than stellar lineup 5 years ago (sorry), in
your second year of operation you got more diverse stuff in, with Deus Ex
Machina, Squonk Opera and Ars Nova.

The other festivals have always been more diverse as well. Where
neo-prog is different from the prog-metal, space rock and RIO festivals
that have sprung up, in my view, is that neo-prog has always existed in a
symbiotic relationship with other prog at these festivals (which rules out
prog-metal and space rock), and is commercially viable by prog standards
(which rules out RIO). If you'd like to question my motives that's fine,
but now that I've explained them it would be nice if you'd give me the
credit not to bullshit you.

> They performed at NEARFest...did they pay $10,000? Absolutely not. I
> don't know what Rob paid, but I know Greg Walker was a *huge* fan of
> theirs and was willing to shell out more money for them (wasn't it a
> 're-union' show of sorts at the time?).

I wonder if Greg is indirectly responsible for the _Nostradamus_
album :)

> I know I'm right about festivals losing money. Now, something like
> ProgFest where Greg Walker makes ooby-gobs of money off of CD Sales;
> those profits probably help stabilize the loss the festival endured.

<nod>

> I think here we might be on common ground...I think Captain MDA is a
> dreamer if he thinks he can get more than 600 people in Charlotte for
> Saga. Actually, you might have a better perspective on the popularity
> of Saga.

Pretty well non-existant here as well, actually. They're known to
prog.

> Same thing happened more recently when someone tried to bring Peter
> Banks over for a show in CT.

That's too bad. It looks like not only am I wrong about the
motives of this event, but that it could really nail the promoters.

> Charlotte is a major Southern city. The problem will lie in promotion
> and publicity. If a major rock station co-produced the show, then
> there's an outside chance of success on the order of 300 or 400
> people...but in the 5 years I've done ProgDay, major rock stations
> don't give a sh*t...unless you pay them mega-bucks. Let's face it --
> as famous as Flower Kings, Spocks Beard or Arena are on rmp...they
> don't mean jack to the common population.

<nod>

Thanks for the discussion. I hope you realize that I'm *not*
trying to slag the guys running this, and it's not some anti-neo prog
crusade. At the same time, I'm happy for information that corrects any
misconceptions I have.

TOIB

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Jan 7, 2000, 3:00:00 AM1/7/00
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Steve awakens Beta 14 OK:

> But what makes everyone so certain that, say, Tenn Jinn or Iluvatar are so much
> popular in terms of sales than, say Thinking Plague, Present or Magma?

I dunno. Why don't you post some sales figures for us? ;)

> The Victo Fest in Canada has programmed a truly "outside" music style festival
> for years [featuring a few of the avant garde progressive acts, but mostly
> featuring more improvisational/avant acts such as Fred Frith/John
> Zorn/ROVA/Otomo Yoshihide, etc]. Their attendence has better figures than ANY
> of the "progrock" festivals mentioned in Peter Renfro's posting. Often their
> large weekend shows get close to 1,000 people. The Univers Zero show had
> slightly over 500 people attending.

> I saw 200-300 people attend U Totem's show in Montreal in 1990.

These can be at least partially explained by the fact that, hey,
it's Quebec :). In all seriousness, they have one of the healthiest prog
scenes, particularly RIO, in the world. Run the Victo Fest in North
Carolina and see what happens :).

Look at the ProgEst festival .. it took fairly suicidal planning
(10 days with a few acts repeating) in order to make it less than
successful.

> While I don't want to become a concert promoter to prove this, I question the
> general wisdom that has been through this entire thread that a festival of more
> avant-style progressive acts would do so much worse - or if it would do worse
> at all - than a festival of all "neo" or "symphonic" bands.

> Just food for thought.

Thanks, Steve.

Chad Hutchinson

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Jan 7, 2000, 3:00:00 AM1/7/00
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Hi all,

I would just like to go on record as saying that previously posted
comments by Peter Renfro were not accurate concerning the motives and
philosohpy of NEARfest.

Whereas I realize that Peter is trying to make a point about the profits
that are attainable (or not) in the progressive rock festival market, I
would prefer that statements posted to this newsgroup or any mailing
list concerning the inner workings and background of NEARfest come from
either Rob LaDuca or myself.

If anyone has any questions about the motives and philosohpy of
NEARfest, we would be more than happy to answer them. Our sole intent is
to bring the best progressive rock acts in the world to the most people
possible in the span of one fantastic weekend. We operate in the current
manner simply to ensure the success of the fest so that future events
will take place, to maximize the artists' and fans' experiences, and to
raise awareness of progressive rock as a vital form of musical
creativity.

Thanks for your attention and understanding and we hope to see you all
in June at NEARfest 2000.

Sincerely,

Chad Hutchinson
Vice-President, NEARfest
ch...@nearfest.com
=======================================
North East Art Rock Festival / NEARfest
June 17-18, 2000 - Bethlehem, PA
http://www.nearfest.com

Miciah

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Jan 8, 2000, 3:00:00 AM1/8/00
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>I realize that a lot of people DIDN'T like Thinking Plague at Progday. At the
>same time, while it was really wonderful for Peter Renfro to invite them, they
>*were* a bit of a "fish out of water" with the rest of the more
>symphonic/progressive/neo-progressive style acts featured at Progday '99.

Well, a lot of people also DID like Thinking Plague at Progday.

I think it's time to set the record straight. I don't understand why I keep
hearing reference to TP and Progday and how ill received they supposedly were.
Just because some vocal people on rmp enthusiastically posted how much they
didn't care for TP doesn't mean that TP bombed by any means. It wasn't like
that at all. Any reports you've heard that make it out that way are simply
incorrect.

They were just so unique and powerful that, as Steve Sly once said, they
polarized the audience. For every person at Progday who had a problem with TP
there was someone else who was blown away.

I don't see this as unsuccessful in any way, or even undesirable. I remember
more "strongly positive" comments about their show than negative ones, and more
strongly positive comments about them than "strongly positive" comments about
any other single band there. That TP was "the most amazing concert I've seen
in my life" was something I heard more than once after their show, and I
certainly don't remember that being said by anyone about any of the other acts
that weekend. And as far as being a draw, I heard scores of people say that
they came to Progday specifically to see TP, a few from the other side of the
country who wouldn't have even walked across the street to see many of the
other bands.

>And, at least based on what many folks told me, Miriodor was the reason that
as
>many folks came to Progscape in Baltimore, '96 as they did.

Yes. The same as TP at Progday.

Stevesly

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Jan 8, 2000, 3:00:00 AM1/8/00
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Peter Renfro wrote:

> >I project SOAR will get 150 paid attendance...<<

According to correspondence I have had with Stephen and Todd (the promoters) if
they only draw 150 people they are in big, big , big trouble. I have been one
of those people arguing for several years, that festivals need to have “name”
bands to draw in the non hard core prog crowd (basically people different from
the same core group that usually attends Progday, NEARfest ect.). I guess SOAR
will be a good test of my hypothesis, as IMO Arena, Flower Kings, and Spock’s
Beard would all qualify as headliner status at a festival like Progday,
NEARfest, Progfest or Baja. If Saga is added that makes 4. It will be
interesting to see what happens considering the show is in the same general
part of the country as Progday. Progday typically draws between 2 and 3
hundred. I really honestly believe that SOAR will outdo that mark. In fact I
do not think it is impossible that they could sell the show out, although that
will be tough. Todd and Stephen have bit off a mouthful, and it will be very
interesting to see how this all comes off from a financial point of view.

Steve Sly


jim bird

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Jan 8, 2000, 3:00:00 AM1/8/00
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I'm sick and tired of these posts about
SOAR fest...whose gonna make this and
that $$$$....believe it or not there are
"Neo" prog fans that will pay $65 to
see this show(I still don't think SAGA
will be added).....I'll be ordering my tickets!!




TOIB

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Jan 8, 2000, 3:00:00 AM1/8/00
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jim awakens Beta 14 OK:

> I'm sick and tired of these posts about SOAR fest...

Umm, don't read them then?

> will be added).....I'll be ordering my tickets!!

Great. I hope you have a good time.

Roy DeRousse

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Jan 8, 2000, 3:00:00 AM1/8/00
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Thanks for the fest summary, Peter. I am sure that it will be an eye-
opener to many!

In article <3876048a...@news.cphl.mindspring.com>,
prog...@mindspring.com says...


> BAJAPROG (a for-profit festival)
> 1997: a very small affair with just Cast and Land's End. Surely to
> have broken even since not a 'true' festival.
> 1998: 1st real BajaProg. Tied into Mexicali's city celebration;
> supposedly sound system, venue, etc. all picked up by the city.
> 1999: After Crying, Quidam, Halloween, Arena, Ten Jinn, etc.
> Several bands sponsored by respective record labels. No official
> word, though likely to have broken even.

I might also mention that Baja Prog attracts a very large local audience
of "normal" people - something that I haven't seen at any other fest (and
I've been to most of them!). That must help a lot.

> NEARFEST (a not-for-profit festival)
> 1999: After hearing numerous complaints from Northerners about how
> far it is to travel to ProgDay, Rob LaDuca and Chad Hutchins team up
> to test the viability of a prog festival in the Northeast. Keeping
> things small (400-seat auditorium), and well-organized, the first

The other smart thing that they did was to make it limited, emphasizing
the possibility of a sell-out. Lots of people bought tickets in advance
because they were afraid to wait until later, fearing that there would be
no tickets available - sort of a self-fulfilling prophecy.
(Unfortunately, ProgDay doesn't have that leverage. Unless you booked
someone like Phish there, it would be very hard to fill up Storybook
Farm.)

> Sorry if I've rambled on a bit long...I've had the flu for two weeks,
> and today is the first day that I feel remotely 'human' ;)

Glad to hear that you're feeling better!

--
Have fun!

Roy DeRousse (rel...@iname.com)
** Want to get paid while you surf the web? Check out:
** http://alladvantage.com/go.asp?refid=EGX-986
** Not a hoax. I use it myself.

Roy DeRousse

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Jan 8, 2000, 3:00:00 AM1/8/00
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In article <20000107234033...@ng-cu1.aol.com>,
stev...@aol.com says...

> According to correspondence I have had with Stephen and Todd (the promoters) if
> they only draw 150 people they are in big, big , big trouble. I have been one
> of those people arguing for several years, that festivals need to have “name”
> bands to draw in the non hard core prog crowd (basically people different from
> the same core group that usually attends Progday, NEARfest ect.). I guess SOAR
> will be a good test of my hypothesis, as IMO Arena, Flower Kings, and Spock’s
> Beard would all qualify as headliner status at a festival like Progday,

These are "names" in the prog community but almost unknown to the general
public. I think you'd have to capture some of that audience to have the
effect that you want to see. I do not think that having all of those
bands in one fest is going to draw any more prog fans than any other prog
fest would get. As a matter of fact, I am not planning to go, even though
I enjoy all of those bands (to varying degrees). Why? I've seen each of
them multiple times already - and Arena and SB recently. Also, the lineup
is too homogeneous for my taste - VERY heavily waited to the neo /
accessible end of the spectrum. Like I say, I enjoy some of it in
moderation, but I really like the variety that some of the other fests
provide.

> NEARfest, Progfest or Baja. If Saga is added that makes 4. It will be

I didn't know that Saga was a possibility. If they're there, I might have
to go afterall! (As a matter of fact, I haven't ruled it out entirely
anyway. It will probably depend on me getting some cheap transportation
there.)

> interesting to see what happens considering the show is in the same general
> part of the country as Progday. Progday typically draws between 2 and 3
> hundred. I really honestly believe that SOAR will outdo that mark. In fact I

I don't. ProgDay has a large contingent of people from outside the area
attending. Unless you can convince those people to go, it won't get
anywhere near ProgDay's attendance simply from the people in the area.
The other option is to heavily promote it to the locals, bringing in a
bunch of new fans. Wouldn't THAT be great?! But much easier said than
done.

I am sorry that I am being so negative here. I certainly applaud the
effort being put into this fest and wish it nothing but the best; I just
have my doubts about its financial viability.

Zero the Hero

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Jan 8, 2000, 3:00:00 AM1/8/00
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Roy DeRousse <rel...@iname.com> spluttered:

> (Unfortunately, ProgDay doesn't have that leverage. Unless you booked
> someone like Phish there, it would be very hard to fill up Storybook
> Farm.)

Hey, that's an idea.

Peter, book Phish for this year's PD and have them do all their 'proggy'
tunes (Reba, Esther, Divided Sky, Stash, etc.)!

Jason

NP: King Crimson - VROOOM Sessions
--
Listen to DREAMS WIDE AWAKE Listen to MUSIC OF THE SPHERES
Progressive rock radio show Classical music radio show
http://www.unf.edu/~jeller/dreams.html (web page pending)
Friday nights from 6 to 9 PM Fridays from 11 AM to 1 PM
Osprey Radio WOSP - http://www.unf.edu/groups/wosp/

Stevesly

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Jan 8, 2000, 3:00:00 AM1/8/00
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Roy wrote:

>>These are "names" in the prog community but almost unknown to the general
public.<<

Yes, this is true. Maybe I should have qualified my remarks. The main thing
is though that within the prog community these are the biggest draws. All of
them have very active e-mail groups (similar to rec.music.progressive) that
many of the other bands that have played recent festivals do not have.

>>I do not think that having all of those
bands in one fest is going to draw any more prog fans than any other prog
fest would get<<

I disagree, but I guess we will just have to wait and see what happens. If I
remember correctly you and I have been on opposite ends of this argument in the
past regarding Progday.

>>I didn't know that Saga was a possibility. If they're there, I might have
to go afterall! (As a matter of fact, I haven't ruled it out entirely
anyway. It will probably depend on me getting some cheap transportation
there.)<<

The last I heard, the decision on Saga was supposed to be made by this weekend.
If Saga does the show it would be a “one off” and not part of a tour.

>>I don't. ProgDay has a large contingent of people from outside the area
attending. Unless you can convince those people to go, it won't get
anywhere near ProgDay's attendance simply from the people in the area.<<

Yes, that is pretty much true of all of the festivals (with the possible
exception of Baja). I know a lot of people appear to be making travel plans on
the Spock’s Beard list (thoughts), so we’ll see.

>>The other option is to heavily promote it to the locals, bringing in a
bunch of new fans. Wouldn't THAT be great?! But much easier said than
done.<<

Of course, that would be the ultimate, but as you said it is much easier said
than done. NEARfest did have a few locals in attendance. I met a girl from
Bethlehem who was there just to check it out from an add she had seen
somewhere. She seemed to have mixed reviews on the music, but she basically
had no idea what to expect.

>>I am sorry that I am being so negative here. I certainly applaud the
effort being put into this fest and wish it nothing but the best; I just
have my doubts about its financial viability.<<

Hey, no problem, usually I am the one being pessimistic :-) I agree with you I
really hope the festival succeeds, but they may very well loose their shirts.
As I have said before, I have looked into trying to put a festival together up
here in Michigan, but the financial realities of the current prog situation
have (so far at least) steered me away from it.

Steve Sly


prog...@mindspring.com

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Jan 8, 2000, 3:00:00 AM1/8/00
to
Zero the Hero <jel...@osprey.unf.edu> wrote:
>Peter, book Phish for this year's PD and have them do all their 'proggy'
>tunes (Reba, Esther, Divided Sky, Stash, etc.)!

You take care of the legwork, hiring the extra security, get the band
to agree to 60% of gate receipts, get town and county permits,
etc.etc. and I'll put them on the bill ;)

Phish consistently sells out the Walnut Pavilion in Raleigh (30K or
40K)...I think that would even fill Storybook to capacity! I think I
should work up to such size crowd first!

Peter

prog...@mindspring.com

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Jan 8, 2000, 3:00:00 AM1/8/00
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Chad Hutchinson <ch...@ghostland.com> wrote:
>Hi all,
>I would just like to go on record as saying that previously posted
>comments by Peter Renfro were not accurate concerning the motives and
>philosohpy of NEARfest.

Sincerest apologies to all NEARFesters! Nor should those comments be
construed as my opinions towards the motives of NEARFest. I was just
trying to apply some of the logic the Irish Bastard was using. I
think most people understood where I was coming from. Kudos to Chad
for clarifying what might have been murky to some!

Peter

TOIB

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Jan 8, 2000, 3:00:00 AM1/8/00
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prog...@mindspring.com awakens Beta 14 OK:
> Chad Hutchinson <ch...@ghostland.com> wrote:
>>Hi all,
>>I would just like to go on record as saying that previously posted
>>comments by Peter Renfro were not accurate concerning the motives and
>>philosohpy of NEARfest.

> Sincerest apologies to all NEARFesters! Nor should those comments be
> construed as my opinions towards the motives of NEARFest. I was just
> trying to apply some of the logic the Irish Bastard was using.

YM "Apply what logic you thought I was using".

Guy F. LeBlanc

unread,
Jan 9, 2000, 3:00:00 AM1/9/00
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Miciah (mic...@aol.com) writes:
>
> Well, a lot of people also DID like Thinking Plague at Progday.

I was the guy at the back of the room dancing the crazed fandango to their
set. And it does take something special to make me dance in public. All in
all, I enjoyed all the sets specifically because of the diversity.
GL

--

Mahl Productions
Purveyors of PROG
(and other fine music products)

Plsntgrn

unread,
Jan 21, 2000, 3:00:00 AM1/21/00
to
>Well, a lot of people also DID like Thinking Plague at Progday.

I certainly did, they were the only band
all weekend who made me get teary-eyed.
Dark Aether Project also did a superior
set.


>They were just so unique and powerful that, as Steve Sly once said, they
>polarized the audience. For every person at Progday who had a problem with
>TP
>there was someone else who was blown away.

That is absolutely true, I spoke to many
attendees who said TP made it worth
their trip, me included.
For my personal taste I would definitely
like to see more chances taken at festivals
with 'less obvious' band choices as Steve
Feigenbaum mentioned. There have been
some *great* scores in this area over the
years like Deus Ex Machina, Miriodor,
Squonk Opera, Anekdoten, Anglagard,
Boud Deun, etc.
I will say the NEARfest lineup this year
looks quite good, with several unpredictable choices. (Il Balletto? DFA?)
It sure would be neat to see a show with
Samla Mammas Manna, Hoyry-Kone,
Locanda Della Fate, Discus, Hands,
U Totem, Bi Kyo Ran, and on and on.
I don't presume to be able to project
attendance figures for prog shows, but
I bet lots of people would definitely go out
of their way to see even one of these
bands.
Jesus, look at NEARfest, Il Balletto Di
Bronzo, DFA, Happy the Man,et al, and
still 2 bands to announce.
I don't want to sound pro or con for any
festival, all I've been to have had high and
low points, as it should be. I think all
festivals should have a wide cross-section
of bands so as not to skew to toward a
particular 'style' of progressive. One would
have to concede though, that there has
been a bit of a skew toward the 'neo' side
of things at some of them. This may be a
matter of perceived drawing power, or a
choice based on the personal taste of the
promoters, I don't know.
If it is the former, well, like Mr. Feigenbaum
says, who is to say, uh, Hoyry-Kone
wouldn't have the American draw of, say,
Arena? Or Samla vs. Marillion?
Taking the travel component in mind I'd
just like to advance the theory that perhaps
the drawing power of some 'styles' may
be overrated, and some underrated.
I know it's a guess any way you go, and
I have the highest respect for all the crazy
guys who dive into this area so that we
can experience *any* live progressive at
all! I've done a couple of shows here in
Georgia (Volare', Still, Cobweb Strange,
and Deus Ex Machina), and it is quite a
harrowing experience. So hats off.
One last word regarding ProgScape:
Lots of fun, great bands, but the best reason to go was always Chris Lamka,
promoter, one of the great beings on the
planet, and a great musical/spiritual
influence!
Your mileage may vary
Geoff

Plsntgrn

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Jan 21, 2000, 3:00:00 AM1/21/00
to
>I have been one
>of those people arguing for several years, that festivals need to have “name”
>bands to draw in the non hard core prog crowd (basically people different
>from
>the same core group that usually attends Progday, NEARfest ect.).

Per my last response I would like to
advance the theory that that is absolutely
the *wrong* thing to do. Targeting an
audience that is obviously not interested
or not able to travel to attend a festival is
just shooting yourself in the foot.
Wouldn't it be smarter to target the
audience that is actually willing to travel
and attend these shows?
Let's face it, if you offer a bill to the prog
crowd, or the 'general public' with Arena,
Spock's Beard, IQ, etc. in North Carolina,
1) most progheads have seen these bands
live already if they are festival goers, and
2) some will give it a miss because of the
lineup.
Keep in mind that what we as prog fans
might think are 'name bands' are bands
that 99.9999% of the world could give less
of a crap about, so that option is *out*.
Putting an ad in the local paper that
Spock's Beard and Arena are in town will
get you a tumbleweed response and some
wasted revenue.
This show is semi-convenient for me to
attend (a 6 hour drive) but honestly, I
wouldn't go so for based on the lineup.
SO,
Why tailor a lineup to an ephemeral bunch
of people who aren't even going to come
('different from the core group')?
For Pete's sake, engineer it towards the
people who have the wherewithal to attend!
Get some bands nobody's seen, and
spread the 'style' around, so you have at
least one band in a 'style' people would travel to see (i.e. Thinking Plague).
Otherwise I predict financial disaster.
Dicing up the lineup a bit with Ozone
Quartet (local for promoters), The Hand
Farm (who want to come down and play),
The Hosemobile (close by), or how about
Doctor Nerve (NY)-, actually might draw
a bigger crowd.
Again, who am I to say?
I leave it to the experts.
Geoff

Stevesly

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Jan 21, 2000, 3:00:00 AM1/21/00
to
Geoff wrote:
>>Per my last response I would like t0 advance the theory that that is

absolutelythe *wrong* thing to do.<<

Ok, I feel that I have to respond to this.

>>Targeting an audience that is obviously not interestedor not able to travel
to attend a festival is justshooting yourself in the foot.Wouldn't it be


smarter to target the audience that is actually willing to travel and attend
these shows?<<

So what audience are you talking about? I know plenty of fans of all kinds of
prog who are willing to travel. Are you saying that neo fans are not willing
to travel?

>>Let's face it, if you offer a bill to the progcrowd, or the 'general public'
with Arena,Spock's Beard, IQ, etc. in North Carolina,...2) some will give it a
miss because of thelineup.<<

Yes this is true, but others will be attracted to it because of the lineup.

>>This show is semi-convenient for me to attend (a 6 hour drive) but honestly,

Iwouldn't go so for based on the lineup<<

That is your own personal taste and a choice that you make. Again, there are
people who will attend solely based on the lineup.

>>SO,Why tailor a lineup to an ephemeral bunchof people who aren't even going
to come('different from the core group')<<

The “core” group as I called them in a previous post consists of fans of all
kinds of prog, not just neo, or not just “boundry pushing” bands. Many people
attended NEARfest last year because of Spock’s Beard and IQ alone. A lot of
these people had never been to a prog festival before. This is what I mean by
outside of the core group.

>>For Pete's sake, engineer it towards the people who have the wherewithal to
attend!<<

Again, who are you talking about? I am a big neo/symphonic/prog-metal fan and
I have traveled half way across the country to attend both Progday and
NEARfest. I know a lot of other people who have similar tastes as myself who
travel to these shows as well.

>>Get some bands nobody's seen, and spread the 'style' around, so you have

atleast one band in a 'style' people would travel to see (i.e. Thinking
Plague).<<

Just speaking for myself here, I wouldn’t travel across town to see Thinking
Plague. Now let me qualify this. Thinking Plague are fantastic musicians, in
fact they may be some of the best musicians that I have ever seen live, but I
don’t really care for their music. It just does not do much for me, thus I
would not travel to see them specifically (although there are people out there
who would of course). This is not a reflection on Thinking Plague or their
fans, it is just not my cup of tea.

>>Dicing up the lineup a bit...... or how aboutDoctor Nerve (NY)-, actually
might drawa bigger crowd.<<

Sorry, but you would have to pay me to sit through a Dr. Nerve concert. Again,
fantastic musicians, but just not my taste. (and I do have two of their
albums).

The bottom line is, I think diversity in prog festivals is great. But, that
does not mean that there is not room for genre specific festivals. Hell, it
has already happened with progmetal (Powermad), and Space-prog (Strange Daze),
and even Baja Prog has been pretty neo oriented. I think that if prog
continues to grow it is inevitable that more and more of this will happen.
Whether this will work at SOARfest remains to be seen, but who are you to say
that putting on a festival like this is wrong? Give me a fucking break.

Steve Sly
(NP - Cowboy Junkies - Pale Sun Crescent Moon)


JSwearengn

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Jan 21, 2000, 3:00:00 AM1/21/00
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Hey, count me in as one who WILL BE at SOARfest, I don't care how far I have to
travel. And, yes, I have seen Spock's Beard, Salem Hill, The Flower Kings,
TenJinn before. And that's precisely why I will travel to Charlotte to see them
again. This time I will have a better sense of the music (or maybe just better
sense)--so I'l listen to them on a whole different level and love every
repeated minute of it. DItto for NEARfest and ProgDay '00.

Magnolia Progette
(NP-Anekdoten-From Within)

Miciah

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Jan 22, 2000, 3:00:00 AM1/22/00
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>The bottom line is, I think diversity in prog festivals is great. But, that
>does not mean that there is not room for genre specific festivals. Hell, it
>has already happened with progmetal (Powermad), and Space-prog (Strange Daze),
>and even Baja Prog has been pretty neo oriented. I think that if prog
>continues to grow it is inevitable that more and more of this will happen.
>Whether this will work at SOARfest remains to be seen, but who are you to say
>that putting on a festival like this is wrong? Give me a fucking break.

Hi Steve.

I agree with everything you've said, but I also agree with Geoff. There is
nothing intrinsically wrong with a genre specific festival. I think that all
he is trying to say is that the potential audience is bigger with diversity.
How much larger remains to been seen, but larger none-the-less. If you have a
lineup that is all neoprog then you only get neoprog fans. If you have a
couple of other acts that are spacerock or rio or symphonic or zeuhl, etc, you
not only get the neo fans but also the fans of other subgenres as well.
Therefore you get a larger audience.

While I've heard people say that they will go to a festival because "X" is
playing and they love "X", I can't ever remember anyone telling me they were
NOT going to a festival because "Y" was playing and they hated "Y," not as long
as there were other acts on the bill which they liked. I've been to almost
every major North American festival of the last couple of years and I never
like everyone in the lineup. It's usually about 50/50 for me. But I still go
because of the acts in which I am interested.

Therefore a predominately neo festival that had Dr. Nerve in the lineup would
bring in a certain amount of fans of more avant music that wouldn't have
otherwise been there, and you and other neo fans would still be at the festival
to see the other acts and would use Dr. Nerve as your dinner break. Thats what
happened at Progday with Thinking Plague. Those that wanted to hear them
stayed and those that didn't moved on to other things during their set. But
the audience at Progday was larger than it would have been because TP were
there. The same would hold true for a festival that featured primarily bands
of avant or rio or zeuhl but also included a couple of neo or symphonic bands.

It's interesting that you mention Powermad. Progmetal sells far more CDs than
general progressive rock - I'm talking significantly more (when was the last
time a general prog title sold 60,000 or over 100,000 copies?) So you would
think that Powermad would have been packed. Yet I was at the first two and I
would guess the overall paying attendence to be hardly 150, if that. I remember
some bands playing in front of as few as 20-30 people at a time. That's not
what I would call a success, but I'm at a loss to explain why.

Actually, I'm not certain why there has been so much discussion about the slant
in SOAR's lineup. I don't remember a similar fuss when Powermad or Strange
Daze were announced (which, as you mentioned, were both genre specific events).

Anyway, good luck to you.

LASERCD

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Jan 22, 2000, 3:00:00 AM1/22/00
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<< It's interesting that you mention Powermad. Progmetal sells far more CDs
than
general progressive rock - I'm talking significantly more (when was the last
time a general prog title sold 60,000 or over 100,000 copies?) So you would
think that Powermad would have been packed. Yet I was at the first two and I
would guess the overall paying attendence to be hardly 150, if that. I remember
some bands playing in front of as few as 20-30 people at a time. That's not
what I would call a success, but I'm at a loss to explain why.>>

Michael:

The answer is fairly simple - lack of promotion. If the event had been
properly promoted on a local and national level it should have easily had about
1,000 people. If there were name bands booked it would draw more.

Frank Koshik runs Milwaukee Metal Fest and now one based on the East Coast
(actually going to be here in South Jersey in March). My understanding is that
he draws over 10,000 people for the Milwaukee event. Last year he put on the
first show in Asbury Park, NJ and drew well over 3,000 people each day.

IMHO I would have to disagree with you. I think a genre specific festival will
draw much better than a diversified festival. Most people are inherently lazy
when it comes to attending concerts. If you diversify the festival too much
you give them an excuse not to go. Concentrate it in a direction they like and
they will get off their butts and go ie. Metalfest as mentioned above.

The only problem I see with an event like SOARfest would be location. If Jimi
dug his way out of the earth to play in North Carolina you wouldn't get more
than 300-400 people. An event needs to be either in the Northeast corridor
(preferably reachable from NYC), California, or in a heavily populated mid-US
location like Chicago.

-Ken Golden/The Laser's Edge

Dave Thomas

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Jan 22, 2000, 3:00:00 AM1/22/00
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On 22 Jan 2000 16:15:53 GMT, mic...@aol.com (Miciah) wrote:


>It's interesting that you mention Powermad. Progmetal sells far more CDs than
>general progressive rock - I'm talking significantly more (when was the last
>time a general prog title sold 60,000 or over 100,000 copies?) So you would
>think that Powermad would have been packed. Yet I was at the first two and I
>would guess the overall paying attendence to be hardly 150, if that. I remember
>some bands playing in front of as few as 20-30 people at a time. That's not
>what I would call a success, but I'm at a loss to explain why.


Well, this can be chalked up to a couple of things:

No promotion - Outside of the internet, I don't think anyone's heard
of this show.

No Big Name Bands - Last year was a bit better, but they've still
never had a "headlining" band. The supposed Symphony X appearance in
'98 would have counted, but I never believed for one minute that they
were actually going to play (and I was right). Most of the bands on
the bill have self-produced CDs or are on very small labels. Not that
there's anything wrong with that, as there have been some really,
really good bands at this fest (Evergrey, Mayadome, Lethal, October
Thorns, Tiles, Hand Farm from last year immediatly spring to mind).
But I still think the show has to bring in a band like Fates Warning
or Savatage to really bring in a crowd.

Powermad is also not all progressive metal. There's a lot of straight
ahead metal/thrash on the bill. Last year's line-up was more diverse
than the year before with Tiles and Scott McGill playing, plus a
better balance between prog metal and thrash acts.

Let's hope that some sort of promotion takes place for this year's
event, as there are usually enough good bands on the bill to make it
worth the time of any metal fan to attend.


Dave Thomas - Editor
Pixel Planet - Reviews Of Stuff
http://www.pixelplanet.com

Stevesly

unread,
Jan 22, 2000, 3:00:00 AM1/22/00
to

>>I agree with everything you've said, but I also agree with Geoff. There is
nothing intrinsically wrong with a genre specific festival. I think that all
he is trying to say is that the potential audience is bigger with diversity.<<

I do not necessarily disagree with you on this point, diversity will , in most
cases, draw more people . My response was to Geoff making the statement that
it is wrong to be doing a festival like SOARfest, which I think is bullshit. I
know both of the guys putting this festival on, and they really, really really
love this type of music. They have attended the other festivals, but they just
had the idea of putting together a festival of all music that they enjoy. I
say, if they are willing to do the work, put up the money, and take the risk,
what the hell is wrong with that?

>>While I've heard people say that they will go to a festival because "X" is
playing and they love "X", I can't ever remember anyone telling me they were
NOT going to a festival because "Y" was playing and they hated "Y," not as long
as there were other acts on the bill which they liked.<<

Yes, I believe this is also pretty much true.

>>I've been to almost
every major North American festival of the last couple of years and I never
like everyone in the lineup. It's usually about 50/50 for me. But I still go
because of the acts in which I am interested.<<

I would have to say the same thing.

>>Actually, I'm not certain why there has been so much discussion about the
slant
in SOAR's lineup. I don't remember a similar fuss when Powermad or Strange
Daze were announced (which, as you mentioned, were both genre specific
events)<<

This is what really gets me. If SOAR were a festival featuring all “boundary
pushing” acts, I highly doubt that you would see all the
neo/symphonic/progmetal fans whining about the “wrongness” of having such an
event. I just really don’t think you would see it, because I don’t think most
of them would care.

Hey, who knows maybe I am completely off my rocker on this, but assuming
SOARfest happens, it will be really interesting to see how it compares
attendance wise with other festivals, especially Progday since it is in the
same general geographic location.

Steve Sly


Miciah

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Jan 22, 2000, 3:00:00 AM1/22/00
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>IMHO I would have to disagree with you. I think a genre specific festival
will
>draw much better than a diversified festival. Most people are inherently lazy
>when it comes to attending concerts. If you diversify the festival too much
>you give them an excuse not to go. Concentrate it in a direction they like
and
>they will get off their butts and go ie. Metalfest as mentioned above.

Hi Ken.

Actually I find it surprising that you do disagree with me. I agree that most
people are lazy about going to shows, but that's where the variety comes in.
When you get to the point of drawing over 1000 people then this discussion
really doesn't matter anymore, but I strongly feel that the meager attendance
at most prog festivals (100-600 people, where 300 is considered a "big" crowd)
is enhanced by diversity. Yes, I think you can diversify too much, but that's
not what I'm talking about. I don't mean having every band represent a
different subgenre, I'm just speaking of mixing it up a little.

When I heard about SOAR I started asking around to see if any of my friends and
acquaintances were going. I get tired of taking road trips by myself. Of the
10-12 people I've casually polled concerning going to SOAR, only one is going
(he's a huge Spock's Beard fan and he already lives in Charlotte). The reason
the others are not planning to attend is the narrow focus of the lineup.
Location didn't really concern them. There just wasn't enough diversity that
they thought it was worth their while, and all of them had already seen all of
the acts in the lineup at least once and, in some cases, as many as four times
before, so that wasn't helping the draw either. If there was only one band
that broke the mold (like a Nathan Mahl, or a Thinking Plague, or Mike
Keneally, etc.) at least half of those with whom I spoke would be going. I'm
not mentioning this as a knock against SOAR, but simply to illustrate my point.
I would be very pleased if SOAR pulled in over 1000 people with their current
bill. The more successful festivals there are the better it is for all of us.

But then this is really an academic discussion as there is no way we'll ever
know for sure which approach produces the better results. I've been having
these kind of "complimentary act" debates since I saw Leon Russell and Miles
Davis on the same bill (didn't seem to hurt the size of the crowd).

I also don't think Metalfest is a good point of comparison since I would guess
that much of the audience is pulled directly from the mainstream metal market,
which is huge, not the prog market, which at it's best today is small and
limited.

LASERCD

unread,
Jan 22, 2000, 3:00:00 AM1/22/00
to
<< Actually I find it surprising that you do disagree with me. I agree that
most
people are lazy about going to shows, but that's where the variety comes in.>>

I see it the other way. People always look for an excuse to not go. Part of
the failure of Progscape was because a majority of Chris Lamka's customer base
in Baltimore did not come to the gig to support the event.



<<When I heard about SOAR I started asking around to see if any of my friends
and
acquaintances were going. I get tired of taking road trips by myself. Of the
10-12 people I've casually polled concerning going to SOAR, only one is going
(he's a huge Spock's Beard fan and he already lives in Charlotte). The reason
the others are not planning to attend is the narrow focus of the lineup.
Location didn't really concern them. There just wasn't enough diversity that
they thought it was worth their while, and all of them had already seen all of
the acts in the lineup at least once and, in some cases, as many as four times
before, so that wasn't helping the draw either. If there was only one band
that broke the mold (like a Nathan Mahl, or a Thinking Plague, or Mike
Keneally, etc.) at least half of those with whom I spoke would be going. I'm
not mentioning this as a knock against SOAR, but simply to illustrate my point.
I would be very pleased if SOAR pulled in over 1000 people with their current
bill. The more successful festivals there are the better it is for all of
us.>>

Don't you think the main problem your friends have with SOAR is the fact that
it's the same names over and over again? No knock against any of the bands
projected but they have all been through here at least once. If I was a neo
fan on a certain level I'd be kind of disappointed. I know there are more neo
bands than this to draw from.

<<But then this is really an academic discussion as there is no way we'll ever
know for sure which approach produces the better results. I've been having
these kind of "complimentary act" debates since I saw Leon Russell and Miles
Davis on the same bill (didn't seem to hurt the size of the crowd).>>

How about Livingston Taylor opening for Jethro Tull at Madison Square Garden.
He got beaned by a bottle in the middle of the first song and walked off the
stage.

<<I also don't think Metalfest is a good point of comparison since I would
guess
that much of the audience is pulled directly from the mainstream metal market,
which is huge, not the prog market, which at it's best today is small and
limited. >>

Not sure I agree. Metalfest focuses on black, death, and power metal. Sure
Meshuggah sells more CDs than all the bands at Nearfest, Progfest, and Progday
combined but the vast majority of them are unknown. It's just better promoted
and the location is better. The Milwaukee festival has become an "event" in
the genre and it seems everyone goes (everyone but me of course ;0) ). The NJ
festival did well because of it's location.

-Ken Golden


Subject: Re: SOAR Budget (A Long Guestimate)
Path: >>


Stevesly

unread,
Jan 23, 2000, 3:00:00 AM1/23/00
to

>>When I heard about SOAR I started asking around to see if any of my friends
and
acquaintances were going. I get tired of taking road trips by myself. Of the
10-12 people I've casually polled concerning going to SOAR, only one is going
(he's a huge Spock's Beard fan and he already lives in Charlotte). The reason
the others are not planning to attend is the narrow focus of the lineup.<<

But I think this somwhat depends on who your friends are. I tend to corrispond
and be aquanted with a lot of people who are really into neo/symphonic, and all
I can say is most of the people I talk to are really exited about this lineup.
Apples and Oranges I guess.

Steve Sly
(NP - Cowboy Junkies - Black Eyed Man)

Slink43809

unread,
Jan 23, 2000, 3:00:00 AM1/23/00
to
When are the dates for SOAR and where is the show going to be at? Scott

Stevesly

unread,
Jan 24, 2000, 3:00:00 AM1/24/00
to
>
>When are the dates for SOAR and where is the show going to be at?

SOAR will be held May 6 in Charlotte North Carolina. The lineup:

Ten Jinn
Salem Hill
Arena
The Flower Kings
Spock's Beard

AllGdPple

unread,
Jan 25, 2000, 3:00:00 AM1/25/00
to
>
>Ten Jinn
>Salem Hill
>Arena
>The Flower Kings
>Spock's Beard
>
>
>
>
>
>

it's a power-packed line-up. is that the order of appearrance? I just can't
see how any true progfan east of the Mississippi would miss it; barring a
financial or medical tragedy of course.

the same with Quarkstock:
Alien Planetscapes, Architectural Metaphor, Born to Go, Dark Aether Project,
Escapade, French TV, Quarkspace and Tombstone Valentine.

what a lineup!! for 20 bucks? anyone who misses this show is a poser.

Ken said it all, progfans are lazy when it comes to attending festivals. but
there is no excuse, for a weekend of great spacerock, that they can't shell
out $20 plus gas. hell, for $20 i'd buy a ticket even if i didn't go......just
to support the event.

and still i won't miss NEARFest. i'm planning on making this the best
progsummer of all, from SOAR to ProgDay '00.

i still relive the inaugural NEARFest often by listening to the webcast at
Studio M.

kenny

Zero the Hero

unread,
Jan 25, 2000, 3:00:00 AM1/25/00
to
AllGdPple <allg...@aol.com> spluttered:

>>Ten Jinn
>>Salem Hill
>>Arena
>>The Flower Kings
>>Spock's Beard
> it's a power-packed line-up. is that the order of appearrance? I just can't
> see how any true progfan east of the Mississippi would miss it; barring a
> financial or medical tragedy of course.

Or a sudden onset of good taste.

(Come on, you had to see that coming.)

> the same with Quarkstock:
> Alien Planetscapes, Architectural Metaphor, Born to Go, Dark Aether Project,
> Escapade, French TV, Quarkspace and Tombstone Valentine.

Yeah, this I'd like to see. Alas, too far away, and I need to save up for
NF (and maybe PD).

Jason

NP: The Beatles - Sgt. Pepper


--
Listen to DREAMS WIDE AWAKE Listen to MUSIC OF THE SPHERES
Progressive rock radio show Classical music radio show
http://www.unf.edu/~jeller/dreams.html (web page pending)

Friday nights from 6 to 9 PM Wednesdays from 11 AM to 1 PM

CountV

unread,
Jan 25, 2000, 3:00:00 AM1/25/00
to
On 00/01/25 06:24, AllGdPple <allg...@aol.com> uploaded to the Usenet, for
all the world to see, the following:

>> Ten Jinn
>> Salem Hill
>> Arena
>> The Flower Kings
>> Spock's Beard

> it's a power-packed line-up. is that the order of appearrance? I just can't
> see how any true progfan east of the Mississippi would miss it; barring a
> financial or medical tragedy of course.

If you find most of these bands to range from middling to awful you're not a
true prog fan, then?

I'm glad I'm such a fake, then.

--
JohnT/CountV
"Cunnilingus and psychiatry brought us to this." - Tony Soprano
Design by Coercion - New Years update, with image manipulation section;
http://www.m-ideas.com/coercion/index.htm


AllGdPple

unread,
Jan 25, 2000, 3:00:00 AM1/25/00
to
>
>If you find most of these bands to range from middling to awful you're not a
>true prog fan, then?
>
>I'm glad I'm such a fake, then.
>


now see CountV, Jason answered me; you, on the other hand, missed the gistt.

i didn't say that anyone that misses it isn't a true progfan. i said that i
didn't see (or understand) how any true progfan, east of the MR, could miss it.


and Jason, good taste has nothing to do with it......you might have an immature
pallate that can't appreciate the value that each style of prog has to offer,
so you pick and choose the bands that suit your limited taste. my taste is
broad and all-encompassing (at least that is my plan), and will not allow my
opinion to be molded by one side or the other......neo, classical, new wave,
RIO, etc. it's all valuable to me.

however, that being said, i'll now give a reason of my own.

the price tag.........if it remains at $65 for the day i'm still going to do
it. although it's steep in comparison with the other festivals. however, i've
heard that if and when they add Saga to the lineup they also might raise the
cost of the ticket.

i'd have to think twice then.....thrice even.

for $20, Quarkstock - a two-day event - is absolutely a must-go-see. i think
they could have charged $30 or $40 and i would have gone......but i honestly
don't see how any true fan would miss it at this price. driving to Ohio from
just about anywhere east of the Rockies seems worth it. any trip less than a
day away is well worth the effort. car pool!!

how is it then that SOAR is considering raising the price of the one day event
from $65?

Even NEARFest is offering 2-day tickets from $45 -$70 to fit any budget and
the lineup is well worth the money IMO.

kenny

TOIB

unread,
Jan 25, 2000, 3:00:00 AM1/25/00
to
AllGdPple awakens Beta 14 OK:

> i didn't say that anyone that misses it isn't a true progfan. i said that i
> didn't see (or understand) how any true progfan, east of the MR, could miss it.

Hair-splitting.

--
Sean McFee
Ground and Sky: http://pantheon.yale.edu/~bcw24/
My progressive rock site: www.nexus.carleton.ca/~sean/prog

Now with 500 hits. "1000 in 2000!" (just kiddin', Rob + Chad)

Zero the Hero

unread,
Jan 25, 2000, 3:00:00 AM1/25/00
to
AllGdPple <allg...@aol.com> spluttered:

> i didn't say that anyone that misses it isn't a true progfan. i said that i
> didn't see (or understand) how any true progfan, east of the MR, could miss it.

You'll have to do better to elaborate the difference there.

> and Jason, good taste has nothing to do with it......you might have an immature
> pallate that can't appreciate the value that each style of prog has to offer,
> so you pick and choose the bands that suit your limited taste. my taste is
> broad and all-encompassing (at least that is my plan), and will not allow my
> opinion to be molded by one side or the other......neo, classical, new wave,
> RIO, etc. it's all valuable to me.

Unbelievable.

Everybody has limited taste. Unless you like every form of music ever
conceived by humans (or others), then your tastes have a limit. My
limited tastes emcompass about 1100 CDs and climbing, but that's neither
here nor there.

If my pallate is immature, it's going to stay that way, because my tastes
change a little every year. Maybe one day, limp-noodle 'prog' like those
five bands will appeal to me. (If, dear reader, you're insulted by that
remark, please get a grip. If you're a member of one of those bands, then
you can take offense and even direct nasty retorts my way. Email would be
appropriate.)

Those bands that 'suit my limited taste' are those that I LIKE. I don't
like those five bands. I don't feel any need to slobber over any band
that calls itself 'prog' for the sake of the movement (that Prog
Solidarity thing again). Thus, I don't feel the bands/styles I don't like
are valuable to my tastes as a 'true progfan'. What is that, anyway? A
card-carrying member of the Prog Solidarity Movement?

Well hell, that was quite a rant. Let me add that those that do enjoy
those bands should get their butts to the show and support them.
Hopefully for them a state of nirvana can be reached, or something.

> how is it then that SOAR is considering raising the price of the one day event
> from $65?

Sean may have already answered this question.

Love,
Jason

Zero the Hero

unread,
Jan 25, 2000, 3:00:00 AM1/25/00
to
Wu <brand...@yaleno.spamedu> spluttered:

> hehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehe.

Ha! The short version of my other rant/post. Thanks, Brandon :-)

Wu

unread,
Jan 26, 2000, 3:00:00 AM1/26/00
to
In article <20000125135445...@ng-fe1.aol.com>, allg...@aol.com
says...

>
>and Jason, good taste has nothing to do with it......you might have an immature
>pallate that can't appreciate the value that each style of prog has to offer,
>so you pick and choose the bands that suit your limited taste. my taste is
>broad and all-encompassing (at least that is my plan), and will not allow my
>opinion to be molded by one side or the other......neo, classical, new wave,
>RIO, etc. it's all valuable to me.

hehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehe.

-B

--
http://pantheon.yale.edu/~bcw24/
NP: Present, "Triskai...etc"
remove NOSPAM to reply


Wu

unread,
Jan 26, 2000, 3:00:00 AM1/26/00
to
In article <388e3...@csd-32630.noc.unf.edu>, jel...@osprey.unf.edu says...

>
>Wu <brand...@yaleno.spamedu> spluttered:
>
>> hehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehe.
>
>Ha! The short version of my other rant/post. Thanks, Brandon :-)

Anytime. ;) I agreed with your rant and was about to post my version,
but what's the point?

-B

--
http://pantheon.yale.edu/~bcw24/
NP: Rage Against the Machine, s/t (awwww yeah)
remove NOSPAM to reply


AllGdPple

unread,
Jan 26, 2000, 3:00:00 AM1/26/00
to
>Hair-splitting.

nope.......a true progfan might have their reasons for not attending, but i
can't understand it. it's beyond me that they don't see the value in the
music. i'm not saying they're not a true fan, just that i don't fathom their
reasoning.

kenny

AllGdPple

unread,
Jan 26, 2000, 3:00:00 AM1/26/00
to
>
>AllGdPple <allg...@aol.com> spluttered:
>> i didn't say that anyone that misses it isn't a true progfan. i said that i
>> didn't see (or understand) how any true progfan, east of the MR, could miss
>it.
>
>You'll have to do better to elaborate the difference there.
>

just did, thanks.

>Unbelievable.
>
>Everybody has limited taste. Unless you like every form of music ever
>conceived by humans (or others),>>>

thanks, i knew you'd see it my way. i've yet to hear a form of music i didn't
have a genuine interest in exploring.

>If my pallate is immature, it's going to stay that way, because my tastes
>change a little every year.>>>

i thought i had you pegged. thanks for the edifying, albeit revealing,
confession.

<<<< I don't feel any need to slobber over any band
>that calls itself 'prog' for the sake of the movement (that Prog
>Solidarity thing again). Thus, I don't feel the bands/styles I don't like
>are valuable to my tastes as a 'true progfan'. What is that, anyway? A
>card-carrying member of the Prog Solidarity Movement?
>>>

yeah, at least that's what it says on my card. where'd you get yours? i've
always viewed progressive fans as having their minds open.....i've seen quite
the opposite....much to my dissappointment.

oh well, i'll sleep just fine this evening.


kenny


Plsntgrn

unread,
Jan 26, 2000, 3:00:00 AM1/26/00
to
Hi Steve,
I shouldn't have mixed my personal
taste in music in what should be a
(business?) discussion. Sorry.
You asked:>

>So what audience are you talking about? I know plenty of fans of all kinds
>of
>prog who are willing to travel. Are you saying that neo fans are not willing
>to travel?

No, I am not saying that- the only point I was trying to make was that many
people have already traveled to see those bands, and they may not be willing to
do so again
(PS I know like 8 progheads who could or
would drive to a show-you must have more
connections than me!).
And you edited my statement here that
said:

>>>Let's face it, if you offer a bill to the progcrowd, or the 'general
>public'
>with Arena,Spock's Beard, IQ, etc. in North Carolina,...2) some will give it
>a
>miss because of thelineup.<

I remember mentioning in this truncated
quote that your attendance might suffer
from the fact that most folks have already
*traveled* to see these bands before.
I am not saying an exclusively *neo*
show in itself is a bad idea, whether it is
my cup of tea or not.
It would just be realistic to understand
that most of the bands have been seen
already by most fans, and promoting a
show like this to the 'general public', after
you spend X dollars on ads, etc, will bring
you a couple of kids in Tool shirts.

>Many people
>attended NEARfest last year because of Spock’s Beard and IQ alone. A lot of
>these people had never been to a prog festival before. This is what I mean
>by
>outside of the core group.

>The bottom line is, I think diversity in prog festivals is great. But, that


>does not mean that there is not room for genre specific festivals. Hell, it
>has already happened with progmetal (Powermad), and Space-prog (Strange
>Daze),
>and even Baja Prog has been pretty neo oriented.

And now those people have seen Arena
and Spock's Beard. Sadly, I think you
overestimate the commitment (or ability)
of most fans by assuming they would
be willing to travel to see them again.
I'm not here to rain on your parade, by
any means, man, just don't overestimate
people too much, 'cause they won't show
up!

As a last note, would you have gotten
so many cautionary posts if this was a
great idea?


>Whether this will work at SOARfest remains to be seen,

Again, I'm not saying it's *wrong*, but if
you are expecting a mind-blowing turnout,
it just isn't going to happen, and I hate
it. I would love for you to succeed.

>who are you to say
>that putting on a festival like this is wrong? Give me a fucking break

I'm not anybody. I'm an untested idiot.
Go ahead. Do it.
Geoff

WNeagle

unread,
Jan 26, 2000, 3:00:00 AM1/26/00
to
> I don't feel any need to slobber over any band
>that calls itself 'prog' for the sake of the movement (that Prog
>Solidarity thing again).

By and large, no band will label itself and, in fact, cringe at tagging a label
on itself for the sake of any "movement." As long as a band can create and
market the sound they like, it doesn't matter what catagory they're labelled.
Just because a couple of bands aren't your cup of tea doesn't give you the
right to create the "limp noodle prog" catagory. Bands are more often
encompassed into a label/catagory by fans than inducting themselves. (And a
true progressive band tries to miss any label at all!)

TOIB

unread,
Jan 26, 2000, 3:00:00 AM1/26/00
to
AllGdPple awakens Beta 14 OK:
>>If my pallate is immature, it's going to stay that way, because my tastes
>>change a little every year.>>>

> i thought i had you pegged. thanks for the edifying, albeit revealing,
> confession.

[etc.]

Kenny's back to the trolling he descends into every few months.
I'd suggest ignoring him until he snaps out of it.

Zero the Hero

unread,
Jan 26, 2000, 3:00:00 AM1/26/00
to
WNeagle <wne...@aol.com> spluttered:

You clearly aren't aware of how a lot of prog bands market themselves
(especially neo-proggers). Hell, just using the word 'progressive' in
their press releases is enough for the members of the PSM to eat it up.

This may be a sweeping generalization, but it seems that those groups
trying their hardest to be 'progressive' actually fall shortest of the
mark. (But let's not go there again.)

And it seems you did take offense at my remark. Are you a member of one
of those bands? No? Then kindly get a grip as I suggested. I did not
insult you, nor did I intend to offend you.

And I'll say it again, I do hope this SoARFest draws a big appreciative
crowd and everyone enjoys themselves and no one loses their shirts. Why
should I hope otherwise?

AllGdPple

unread,
Jan 26, 2000, 3:00:00 AM1/26/00
to
>enny's back to the trolling he descends into every few months.
>I'd suggest ignoring him until he snaps out of it.

never trolled in my life friend. but thanks for caring.

the "good taste" comment, followed by the drooling comment, followed by the
"card carrying PMS" comment was trolling, albeit amusing:) i wasn't offended
by them.......just responded in kind.

i made a simple statement. i didn't say that anyone wasn't a true fan. just
said i didn't understand their reasoning. those who took offense obviously had
something on their conscience. it was not my intention.

i've found it to be true that not all, but many progfans are limited, very
limited in their tastes. on both sides of the arguments i read here. okay, it
surprised me at first, dissappointed me at second and then i accepted it as
reality.

i saw half the audience walk out on Thinking Plague and it sickened me. the
rest were as ebullient as children reacting to the wonderful music they were
hearing. i saw a similar response to Tenn Jinn and was disgusted. okay, As On
a Darkling Plain is not one of the greatest in epic prog, but it's a
wonderfully presented piece of music and it deserved a good listen. it
certainly wasn't horrid, which is how some responded.

i haven't heard much done like it this year, by that i mean epic storytelling.
i rather enjoy this form of prog and was delighted by the performance.

so my comment was sincere......i just didn't understand how a true progfan
could miss the show. i would have the same question if the show were Thinking
Plague, Magma and Univers Zero. or an all Italian lineup, or an all fusion
show. i just don't understand it.....people limit themselves.....why?

kenny NP: Barry Manilow -( I Know) I Was a Fool


Stevesly

unread,
Jan 26, 2000, 3:00:00 AM1/26/00
to
Geoff wrote:

>>No, I am not saying that- the only point I was trying to make was that many
people have already traveled to see those bands, and they may not be willing to
do so again<<

This of course may be true. All of these bands have played North American prog
festivals before, and this may have an effect on whether a person would travel
to see them again. Personally, when I see a band that I like at a festival, I
really like to have the chance to see them again, but that is just me. I am
sure not everyone feels the same way about it.

>>(PS I know like 8 progheads who could or
would drive to a show-you must have more
connections than me!)<<

I know more than that, but I must admit that most of these people are folks
that I have met at Prog festivals/shows so it is a bit of a skewed bunch in
that respect.

>>And now those people have seen Arena
and Spock's Beard. Sadly, I think you
overestimate the commitment (or ability)
of most fans by assuming they would
be willing to travel to see them again.<<

Again, you might be right. I personally have seen all the bands on the bill
except for Arena, and they are all bands that I would love to see again, but
that is just me.

>>I'm not here to rain on your parade, by
any means, man, just don't overestimate
people too much, 'cause they won't show
up!<<

Having been to the last 4 Progdays I know exactly what you mean.

>>As a last note, would you have gotten
so many cautionary posts if this was a
great idea?<<

I fully expected to get these posts on rec.music.progressive, because there is
a very strong anti-neo sentiment among many of the regulars here. The same
information has been posted to several mailing lists that cater to more
neo-oriented fans and the response was almost overwhelmingly positive.

>>Again, I'm not saying it's *wrong*, but if
you are expecting a mind-blowing turnout,
it just isn't going to happen, and I hate
it. I would love for you to succeed. <<

I probably should clear something up here. The SOAR festival is not my show.
In fact I am not directly involved in it at all. I know the two guys who are
putting it on, and since they do not have access to rec.music.progressive I
agreed to post their information to the news group. Rumor has it that there
are some behind the scenes problems, so I am not positive that this thing is
even going to happen at this point.

Steve Sly
(NP - Spock’s Beard - The Official Live Bootleg)


Bice

unread,
Jan 26, 2000, 3:00:00 AM1/26/00
to
On 26 Jan 2000 13:26:22 GMT, allg...@aol.com (AllGdPple) wrote:

>>enny's back to the trolling he descends into every few months.
>>I'd suggest ignoring him until he snaps out of it.
>
>never trolled in my life friend. but thanks for caring.

The last five words of that sentence right there qualify as trolling.


>so my comment was sincere......i just didn't understand how a true progfan
>could miss the show.

It's an all-neo festival. Some people don't like neoprog. So they're
not attending. What's so hard to understand about that?


>i would have the same question if the show were Thinking
>Plague, Magma and Univers Zero. or an all Italian lineup, or an all fusion
>show. i just don't understand it.....people limit themselves.....why?
>
>kenny NP: Barry Manilow -( I Know) I Was a Fool

So I assume you've been happily listening to those Cheap Trick albums
you told me you hate. You wouldn't want to limit yourself, just
because you don't like the band, right?

-- Bob "Bice" Eichler


Zero the Hero

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Jan 26, 2000, 3:00:00 AM1/26/00
to
TOIB <smc...@chat.carletonsp.amca> spluttered:
> This type of argument is another old tactic of yours. I would
> imagine most would have little problem seeing how your comments could be
> construed as antagonistic.

Yeah, he even called me 'immature' and everything! <whimper>

>> i've found it to be true that not all, but many progfans are limited, very
>> limited in their tastes. on both sides of the arguments i read here. okay, it
>> surprised me at first, dissappointed me at second and then i accepted it as
>> reality.

> I know that as someone who likes some
> music from every sub-genre, I tend to get more enjoyment out of the
> movement as a whole than someone who only likes one or two. I don't see
> how not liking a movement makes someone "limited", unless they have only
> listened to the music once or twice without trying to form some kind of
> understanding as to what's going on.

Thanks for further articulating my points.

Lest Kenny get the idea that I only like one or two prog styles (I
wouldn't feel comfortable hosting a prog radio show if I did), allow me
to indulge some bandwidth and analyze my tastes a bit....

<consults FAQs>

Here are the various subgenres of prog as detailed by the RMP FAQs (which
isn't the Lord's Gospel or anything, but it'll do):

Ambient
Art Rock
Canterbury
Classical Rock
Electronic Progressive
Experimental/Industrial
Fusion
Krautrock
Neo-Classical Progressive
Neo-Progressive
Progressive Folk
Progressive Metal
Rock In Opposition (RIO)
Space Fusion
Space Rock
Symphonic Progressive
Zeuhl

Out of those 17 styles, I think I can safely say that I enjoy something
from 11 of them (at least enough to own CDs by representative groups).
Don't mean to toot my own horn or anything, but that's not that limited.

Jason

NP: Maximum Coherence During Flying

CountV

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Jan 26, 2000, 3:00:00 AM1/26/00
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On 00/01/25 13:54, AllGdPple <allg...@aol.com> uploaded to the Usenet, for

all the world to see, the following:

>>

>> If you find most of these bands to range from middling to awful you're not a
>> true prog fan, then?
>>
>> I'm glad I'm such a fake, then.

>
> now see CountV, Jason answered me; you, on the other hand, missed the gistt.
>

> i didn't say that anyone that misses it isn't a true progfan. i said that i
> didn't see (or understand) how any true progfan, east of the MR, could miss
> it.

And what is the distinction? According to you, no True Progfan would miss it
- so anyone who not only misses it, but _actively_ avoids it, wouldn't be a
True Progfan, then.


>
> and Jason, good taste has nothing to do with it......you might have an
> immature
> pallate that can't appreciate the value that each style of prog has to offer,
> so you pick and choose the bands that suit your limited taste. my taste is
> broad and all-encompassing (at least that is my plan), and will not allow my
> opinion to be molded by one side or the other......neo, classical, new wave,
> RIO, etc. it's all valuable to me.

So you like _all_ Prog? No distinctions, no criteria, no critical thinking?

What the hell is _that_ all about?

To me, that sounds like automatically liking _all_ red wine, whether it be
cheap rot gut for $3 in a carton or a 1989 Chateau Pichon Lalande for $145.

If you're going to be that uncritical, don't be surprised if no one takes
your wine recommendations seriously, or any other opinions you might have on
drinkables.

--
John T/CountV
"You'll have to speak up, I'm wearing a towel" - Homer Simpson

Zero the Hero

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Jan 26, 2000, 3:00:00 AM1/26/00
to
AllGdPple <allg...@aol.com> spluttered:
> i can only surmise that those who do not like them choose not to like them,
> which is narrow-minded.

People don't like the music they don't like because... because they don't
like it! It's that bloody simple!

> i don't understand how anyone could choose to exist
> that way.

It's not a choice, it's genetic. We just can't help how we are. We're
not immoral, honest.

> maybe that's a good thing. if i understood it perhaps i'd fall prey
> to the curse.

Welcome to the human race.

Jason

TOIB

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Jan 27, 2000, 3:00:00 AM1/27/00
to
AllGdPple awakens Beta 14 OK:
> i made a simple statement. i didn't say that anyone wasn't a true fan. just
> said i didn't understand their reasoning. those who took offense obviously had
> something on their conscience.

This type of argument is another old tactic of yours. I would
imagine most would have little problem seeing how your comments could be
construed as antagonistic.

> i've found it to be true that not all, but many progfans are limited, very


> limited in their tastes. on both sides of the arguments i read here. okay, it
> surprised me at first, dissappointed me at second and then i accepted it as
> reality.

Jason has already responded to this point, but I will repeat his
argument. It is not the obligation of every fan of some form of
progressive music to like every type of progressive music. In fact, such a
belief is not based on logic; we can't control our tastes, so how can we
be held up or measured by them? I know that as someone who likes some


music from every sub-genre, I tend to get more enjoyment out of the
movement as a whole than someone who only likes one or two. I don't see
how not liking a movement makes someone "limited", unless they have only
listened to the music once or twice without trying to form some kind of
understanding as to what's going on.

> so my comment was sincere......i just didn't understand how a true progfan
> could miss the show. i would have the same question if the show were Thinking


> Plague, Magma and Univers Zero. or an all Italian lineup, or an all fusion
> show. i just don't understand it.....people limit themselves.....why?

Ah, I see. Well, all I can say is that people have different
tastes. Prog is an extremely varied type of music, and there are very few
people (if anyone) who like *everything*. There must be at least some
album you have heard that you didn't like, if you have any critical
faculties whatsoever. How would you like it if you didn't go to such a
band's show, and then someone rashly wondered how you could be a "real"
prog fan. The logic there is so bad it made me think you *were* trolling,
but since you were not, I will only ask that you revisit your conclusion.
Yes, some people unfairly harp on some subgenres. Some people also make
rather valid criticisms. Why would I go to the trouble of hunting down all
this obscure music if my critical faculties were so diminished? If that
were the case, surely I would be satisfied with the mainstream offerings
on the radio!

I dunno. Something to think about.

AllGdPple

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Jan 27, 2000, 3:00:00 AM1/27/00
to
>So I assume you've been happily listening to those Cheap Trick albums
>you told me you hate. You wouldn't want to limit yourself, just
>because you don't like the band, right?

i have listened, many times.......i never said i hate Cheap Trick....i just
said that they suck, that they're cliche. i've had many a good party time
listening to Cheap Trick. used to listen to them at work for hours. i see value
in what they do as a release from the doldrums, but musically they don't
intrigue me. that's how i feel, honestly. plain, ordinary rock & roll has it's
value, i recognize that. it's just my opinion that so many do it better than
they.

oh, and this.......

<<>>enny's back to the trolling he descends into every few months.
>>I'd suggest ignoring him until he snaps out of it.
>
>never trolled in my life friend. but thanks for caring.

The last five words of that sentence right there qualify as trolling.>>>

don't fit me in your little world, i don't live there. Sean saw fit to teach
me a lesson, i thought it was kind of him to care. perhaps he thinks he can
make a better person out of me by chasitising me on this newsgroup. hey, if it
works i'll be deep in his debt. i dont' think he was being flippant. he
mistakes my opinions as trolling. they are not. i should know.

trolling is fishing for an argument, and Bob, we both know, of the two of us,
who enjoys confrontation more. i think i've been hangin on lists with you for
about 4 or 5 years now? our reputations are pretty well established on those
lists..

you say the confusion in my query is simple to reason out...

<It's an all-neo festival. Some people don't like neoprog. So they're not
attending. What's so hard to understand about that?>

......but though i can accept that they don't like neo-prog , i still don't
understand it. they think neo-prog has nothing to offer musically? i feel
sorry for them. to consider all neo-prog insipid and worthless is beyond my
comprehension. i can hear. i know better. so why?

not everything Thinking Plague plays is a masterpiece. some of it is even
derivative .much of it is excellent. i can appreciate it all from the
mediocre to the masterful. and at PD'99 i pleaded with them not to leave the
stage. i felt the same about Apocalypse. yet you can easily dismiss a band's
entire catalogue as having no value. i cannot understand a mind that is content
to exist in this manner. perhaps i never will.

i cannot understand why some can't stand Thinking Plague, and i can't
understand why some can't stand Par Lindh; Magma or The Flower Kings; Boud
Deun or Tenn Jinn. i can hear the greatness and i can hear the
mediocrity.......all six are excellent bands with quality musicians and
composers.

i can only surmise that those who do not like them choose not to like them,

which is narrow-minded. i don't understand how anyone could choose to exist
that way. maybe that's a good thing. if i understood it perhaps i'd fall prey
to the curse. <shudder>

NP: Michael Jackson - Man in the Mirror

"i'm looking at the man in the mirror; i'm asking him to change his ways; and
no message could have been any clearer, if you wanna make the world a better
place just look at yourself and make a change"

"if there's no beauty then close your eyes. if there's no justice just swallow
lies....will the winter kill the summer? will the spring be silent?" - Thinking
Plague - Dead Silence

kenny

Wu

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Jan 27, 2000, 3:00:00 AM1/27/00
to
In article <20000126215448...@ng-co1.aol.com>, allg...@aol.com
says...

>
>>So I assume you've been happily listening to those Cheap Trick albums
>>you told me you hate. You wouldn't want to limit yourself, just
>>because you don't like the band, right?
>
>i have listened, many times.......i never said i hate Cheap Trick....i just
>said that they suck, that they're cliche. i've had many a good party time
>listening to Cheap Trick. used to listen to them at work for hours. i see value
>in what they do as a release from the doldrums, but musically they don't
>intrigue me. that's how i feel, honestly. plain, ordinary rock & roll has it's
>value, i recognize that. it's just my opinion that so many do it better than
>they.
[blahblahblah]

>i can only surmise that those who do not like them choose not to like them,
>which is narrow-minded.
[blahblahblah]

I can only surmise that you do not understand our points of view because you
choose not to understand them, which is narrow-minded.

Stop expressing opinions when you claim not to hold any. This circular
reasoning is getting ridiculous.

-B

--
http://pantheon.yale.edu/~bcw24/
NP: Algarnas Tradgard, "Framtiden aksudgvawieurvbalkudfkjysbfetc"
remove NOSPAM to reply


CountV

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Jan 27, 2000, 3:00:00 AM1/27/00
to
On 00/01/26 21:54, AllGdPple <allg...@aol.com> uploaded to the Usenet, for

all the world to see, the following:

>> So I assume you've been happily listening to those Cheap Trick albums


>> you told me you hate. You wouldn't want to limit yourself, just
>> because you don't like the band, right?
>

> i never said i hate Cheap Trick....i just said that they suck

ROFL

You've got to almost admire someone who can type something like that and
still keep a straight face.

> plain, ordinary rock & roll has it's value, i recognize that. it's just my
> opinion that so many do it better than they.

And my opinion is that many do better approximations of good Prog than, say,
Spock's Beard or Arena.

> ......but though i can accept that they don't like neo-prog , i still don't
> understand it.

Then you haven't accepted it.

> they think neo-prog has nothing to offer musically? i feel sorry for them.
> to consider all neo-prog insipid and worthless is beyond my comprehension. i
> can hear. i know better. so why?

Better, eh? How about those that know even better than you? The people who
can differentiate between good and bad Prog (as you have confessed to being
unable to do)?

> i can appreciate it all from the mediocre to the masterful.

Which would explain liking SB. *g*

> yet you can easily dismiss a band's entire catalogue as having no value. i
> cannot understand a mind that is content to exist in this manner. perhaps i
> never will.

Some bands suck - that's just a fact of _taste_.

> i can only surmise that those who do not like them choose not to like them,
> which is narrow-minded.

No less narrow-minded than you saying that Cheap Trick suck (which they do,
but that's beside the point).

> i don't understand how anyone could choose to exist that way.

I don't understand how anyone could choose to exist with no critical
faculties at all. But maybe that's just me, y'know?

Alex Volperts

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Jan 27, 2000, 3:00:00 AM1/27/00
to
CountV wrote:
>
> > i never said i hate Cheap Trick....i just said that they suck
> ROFL
>
> You've got to almost admire someone who can type something like that and
> still keep a straight face.

Hey, what is wrong with this statement ? I easily can imagine this situation -
for example, I think that Pendragon sucks, but for goodness sake - I do not hate
them....

--
Aleksandrs Volperts
-----------------------------------------------
Anthem of The Heart and Anthem of The Mind

AllGdPple

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Jan 27, 2000, 3:00:00 AM1/27/00
to
>
>No less narrow-minded than you saying that Cheap Trick suck (which they do,
>but that's beside the point).

um, that was for Bob only, not that you don't have the right to comment. the
Cheap Trick Sucks comment was said in a review i did for a Tape Circle on Bob's
compilation tape.

the "sucks" comment was said in jest at the end of the review as a prelude to
my review of his second tape......it was meant to make him laugh, but it
didn't. he tends to take things very seriously.

the point of my post to Bob was to correct his assertion that i ever said i
hated them. not to say that i think they suck but i listen to them anyway. i
think they're a cliched rock&roll band. but i can still party to them.

it's not laughable. there are many great progbands i couldn't party to. Cheap
Trick, has value in that they're easy to lose your mind to. when i hear prog
it's more of a participation sport. it requires concentration, attention.

with bands like Cheap Trick, mindless fun is easy. so, i said the have value.
and i have listened to them for hours at a time to get me thru a hard day at
physical labour.

kenny

NP: Danny's All-Star Joint - Rickie Lee Jones "....i'm in a halfway house on a
one-way street and i'm a-quarter past left alive....."

Zero the Hero

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Jan 27, 2000, 3:00:00 AM1/27/00
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AllGdPple <allg...@aol.com> spluttered:

> um, that was for Bob only, not that you don't have the right to comment.

Then you should have emailed him privately. If you post to a public
forum, public responses are implicitly invited.

CountV

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Jan 27, 2000, 3:00:00 AM1/27/00
to
On 00/01/27 08:16, AllGdPple <allg...@aol.com> uploaded to the Usenet, for

all the world to see, the following:

> the point of my post to Bob was to correct his assertion that i ever said i


> hated them. not to say that i think they suck but i listen to them anyway. i
> think they're a cliched rock&roll band. but i can still party to them.

You really go out of your way to not have any judgement at all, don't you?

TOIB

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Jan 27, 2000, 3:00:00 AM1/27/00
to
AllGdPple awakens Beta 14 OK:
> don't fit me in your little world, i don't live there. Sean saw fit to teach
> me a lesson, i thought it was kind of him to care. perhaps he thinks he can
> make a better person out of me by chasitising me on this newsgroup.

This, of course, is not "fishing for an arugment". LOL.

> trolling is fishing for an argument,

...although, strictly speaking, this isn't even true.

> ......but though i can accept that they don't like neo-prog , i still don't

> understand it. [...] to consider all neo-prog insipid and worthless is
> beyond my comprehension. [...] i cannot understand a mind that is
> content to exist in this manner. perhaps i never will. [...] i cannot


> understand why some can't stand Thinking Plague, and i can't
> understand why some can't stand Par Lindh; Magma or The Flower Kings; Boud
> Deun or Tenn Jinn.

And FINALLY...

> i can only surmise that those who do not like them choose not to like them,
> which is narrow-minded.

Sure, as long as you realize that your belief is based on so much
failure to understand that it has pretty well no credibility.

> i don't understand how anyone could choose to exist that way.

Exactly.

TOIB

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Jan 27, 2000, 3:00:00 AM1/27/00
to
CountV awakens Beta 14 OK:

> On 00/01/27 08:16, AllGdPple <allg...@aol.com> uploaded to the Usenet, for
> all the world to see, the following:

>> the point of my post to Bob was to correct his assertion that i ever said i
>> hated them. not to say that i think they suck but i listen to them anyway. i
>> think they're a cliched rock&roll band. but i can still party to them.

> You really go out of your way to not have any judgement at all, don't you?

Except against those who do.

AllGdPple

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Jan 27, 2000, 3:00:00 AM1/27/00
to
>
> Sure, as long as you realize that your belief is based on so much
>failure to understand that it has pretty well no credibility.
>

it's not a belief Sean. it's only an attempt to reason it out.

they just don't like it because they don't like it. wow. it's beyond me. if
that leaves me with zero credibility then i accept. dont' know if i want any
credibility with those who think like this.

i know this....i'm going to enjoy the summer. especially now that Thinking
Plague has been added to the Nearfest lineup. Alien Planetscapes, Quarkspace,
The Flower Kings, Thinking Plague, DFA, Par Lindh, Anekdoten, Tenn Jinn,
Architectural Metaphor, Il Balletto Di Bronzo, French TV, Dark Aether,
Nexus.......if Mr LeBlanc was serious about putting a fusion-fest together in
Ottawa this is going to be one true progfans summer to remember:)

hey Jason!! i think i'm starting to drool!!

have a chuckle.....it's on me:)

kenny NS(that's singing): "Save Me"- Joan Armatrading "...sinking.......
caught up in a whirly motion......such a strange sensation.....the course
uncertain....."

Stevesly

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Jan 27, 2000, 3:00:00 AM1/27/00
to

Count V wrote:

>If you're going to be that uncritical, don't be surprised if no one takes
>your wine recommendations seriously, or any other opinions you might have on
>drinkables.<<

I just want to make one quick comment here. I know Kenny personally, and of
all the people I know who are into music, I can honestly say that I do not know
anyone who listens to a wider variety of music than Kenny does. He really does
love and appreciate a wide, wide, wide range of musical styles encompassing not
only prog, but just about any from of music you can name. When he talks about
being relatively uncritical, he is not just blowing smoke up your ass. He
really does have an affinity for at least some of just about every style of
music on the planet. You can choose to believe me or not, but I know the guy,
and I know that he speaks what he really feels.

Steve Sly
(NP - Cowboy Junkies - Black Eyed Man)

Zero the Hero

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Jan 27, 2000, 3:00:00 AM1/27/00
to
Stevesly <stev...@aol.com> spluttered:

> I just want to make one quick comment here. I know Kenny personally, and of
> all the people I know who are into music, I can honestly say that I do not know
> anyone who listens to a wider variety of music than Kenny does. He really does
> love and appreciate a wide, wide, wide range of musical styles encompassing not
> only prog, but just about any from of music you can name. When he talks about
> being relatively uncritical, he is not just blowing smoke up your ass. He
> really does have an affinity for at least some of just about every style of
> music on the planet. You can choose to believe me or not, but I know the guy,
> and I know that he speaks what he really feels.

Wonderful. Fabulous. He's still been acting like a jerk, putting down
others for not being just like him.

TOIB

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Jan 28, 2000, 3:00:00 AM1/28/00
to
AllGdPple awakens Beta 14 OK:
>> Sure, as long as you realize that your belief is based on so much
>>failure to understand that it has pretty well no credibility.

> it's not a belief Sean. it's only an attempt to reason it out.

<shrug> Either way.

> they just don't like it because they don't like it. wow. it's beyond me.

I think you've proven this in spades :).

> Nexus.......if Mr LeBlanc was serious about putting a fusion-fest together in
> Ottawa this is going to be one true progfans summer to remember:)

Hey, why don't you get your butt up to Ottawa? I think getting
something going there will somewhat depend on importing progfans from
around...

TOIB

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Jan 28, 2000, 3:00:00 AM1/28/00
to
Stevesly awakens Beta 14 OK:
> Count V wrote:

>>If you're going to be that uncritical, don't be surprised if no one takes
>>your wine recommendations seriously, or any other opinions you might have on
>>drinkables.<<

> I just want to make one quick comment here. I know Kenny personally, and of


> all the people I know who are into music, I can honestly say that I do not know
> anyone who listens to a wider variety of music than Kenny does.

I don't think anyone is saying they don't *believe* him. However I
do think it's pretty clear (and you back this up) that he is a vast
minority. Thus, when he says he can't understand how someone couldn't like
all prog (or all music for that matter), he does so as a lone voice crying
out in the wilderness :). This makes his definition of "true progfan"
pretty tough to swallow.

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