Any thoughts appreciated.

I'm a producer, and I am in the process of creating a new UK sci-fi series.
It is early days yet, but I was just wondering if any of you would care to
share what it is you love about the programmes, books, graphic novels etc
you read or watch. This programme is not going to be a cheesy lifeless
rehash of old ideas. I have been in love with the genre since my childhood,
and I have been building up over many years to finally create something
which pushes ideas forward. I have found that most sci-fi series of late,
have been struggling to really do anything of any value.
Like I said, it is early days at the moment, but in a few months time, I
will put together a website to show you work in progress. I'll also add
forums, where people can add ideas, or thoughts on production stills,
trailers etc.
It is going to take at least another year before I am close to having
something substantial, as there is a huge amount of pre-production to do,
mainly in the form of scripts, and the 3d sfx aspects. I feel that the
script is clearly always the most important, and this is why I ask you what
it is you enjoy. Obviously Im not going to just take these thoughts and hash
together a script, but i would like to take it into account.I've already got
the basic outline well under way, but I thought it might be nice to hear
what aspects people enjoy, so I don't go too far off track. I do however,
want this programme to appeal to an audience that actually care about the
genre.
An example of what I think is bad in sci-fi of late is such souless series
like ST voyager, Cleopatra 2525, etc.
Laser guns and holodecks are just cheap in my humble opinion. Sci fi fans in
my experience are usually complex people who look for something a little
stranger than real life, not just morale human tales on a space ship.
Anyway, any thoughts would be greatly recieved :)

take care you all.

--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Rules are written for those who lack the ability to truly reason, But for
those who can, the rules become nothing more than guidelines, And live
their lives governed not by rules but by reason.
- James McGuigan-

Two points: firstly, tell us who you are. Secondly, it's SF, not sci-fi.
This latter point concerns me far more than the anonymity, but the
combination of both has me worried.

Ali

So you're going to condemn him out of hand for not being part of the
fannish community that dislikes the term 'sci-fi', and for being discreet,
before he's even started?
--
Mike Whitaker

Agreed! For your information, some fans are snobby about the term sci-
fi, for no particularly rational reason (er, this one has been done to
death here and elsewhere, so lets not go over it all again). Give us a
first name, though, so we can address you in a nice friendly way :-)
It's a lovely idea to consult us, by the way!

Tbh, I don't watch a lot of sf on telly, mainly cos I don't watch much
telly full stop. The best thing I've seen for years, though, has been
Lexx. From which the main lesson to be learned is: Don't Be American :-)

ttfn

Martin

--
"I wanted wine, women and song. I got a drunk woman singing."

Martin Harlow mar...@freedonia.demon.co.uk

Take care you all,

Kris.

p.s. just to refresh, anybody worried about any particular aspects of modern
science and where it will lead?

I don't give a fig whether he's part of any fannish community, but it
worries me that someone who is trying to make a serious SF show is not aware
of the differentiation. And there is discretion and anonymity; I'm afraid I
have got a little cynical about people coming from nowhere and trying to
make TV programmes. I'd like to see some history. it's unfair, I know, but I
remember the Legionnaires debacle all to well, and it has coloured my views.
He/she doesn't have to say who s/he is, but some history and credibility
setting would be pleasant.

Ali

Thanks, Kris, that is much appreciated, and I see where you are coming
from - apologies! :) There have been some bad things happen in the past,
hence my paranoia. We'll give this some thought. I have a nasty feeling that
you will have trouble selling the thing, even if it is wonderful, due to the
UK networks' unutterably stupid attitude to SF, but I hope that you succeed.

Ali

But why are you asking people here to contribute ideas, when you
clearly have enough of your own to be going on with?

(And if you do end up using any ideas people may give you,will they
receive a credit and payment for them?)

How is anyone not part of fandom supposed to know about our foibles?
It's quite possible that the target is the Sci-fi Channel, in which case
calling it Sci-fi would seem to make sense...

It's not like we're being sold anything here. Whether or not the thing
gets made, or what the chances are of it doing so, it's still the most
potentially interesting thread in these parts for a while!

(Proper reply to Kris' post coming later when I have the time!)

ttfn

Martin

--
"Duct tape is like the force. It has a light side, and a dark
side, and it holds the universe together ..." - Carl Zwanzig

Martin Harlow mar...@freedonia.demon.co.uk

Sci-Fi is probably the appropriate word for what the guy is trying to
do, and it can be done well.

When there is no e-mail address at all....

Discretion is when you use something like Hotmail, or even spend a
tenner or two on a domain name and re-direction, something a little more
than a disposable address or no address at all.

It could just be a dumb config error, and the article does make some
sort of sense, but it doesn't look good.

--
David G. Bell -- Farmer, SF Fan, Filker, and Punslinger.

If I were to go back to my schooldays, knowing what I know now, I would
pack cheese sandwiches for lunch.

Maybe the idea is to see which we think are good ones?

If you want payment, don't contribute. Personally, I'm happy to throw a
few ideas about for fun. We are here for fun, aren't we? If the thing
actually gets made, maybe we can expect to get invited to the launch
party :-)

ttfn

Martin

--
"Any girl can be glamorous. All you have to do is stand still and look stupid."
- Hedy Lamarr

Martin Harlow mar...@freedonia.demon.co.uk

Kris

My main concern for the future is apathy. The general public are happy with
their 'Eastnation Street Farm Doctor Vet ' Soaps and have no concern for
their futures, not a single thought crosses their collective mind, whether
its to vote, the proliferation of CCTV, which does not add to safety (I've
not seen one stop a bullet yet) or where their food comes from (Soylent
Green anyone?).

It's not science that threatens society, it's apathy. People don't want to
think and so that lets others do it for them.

I like this news group because, as the responses show, there ain't no apathy
here. The best Sci-Fi (aka SF) doesn't turn the handle to make the product.

What I like about Science Fiction...er...toughie...I like is that it tries
to think about society, now and in the future. Even the worst SF makes you
think.

Final thought: today with our hi-tech spacecraft humans can travel almost
200 miles from the surface of the Earth. Thirty years ago humans could go
over 200,000 miles. No one seems to mind, that scares me.

Roderick
http://www.gladwishes.freeserve.co.uk/

And how exactly is he suppposed to *learn* of the distinction, or even
*want* to, if the first reply he gets is basically rude to him for being
simply unaware? It doesn't hurt to be nice to strangers. It sometimes even
gets you converts. You clearly DO 'give a fig' that he doesn't speak your
clique's language.
--
Mike Whitaker

If you're a producer then you're not a writer (they're both full-time
jobs, and they require wildly different personalities and skills). My
advice would be to tear up whatever you've written, hire a good writer
and start again.

--
Mike Scott
mi...@plokta.com

Mike, I was not being rude, and I am not in any clique. I run media cons
amongst other things, so have had all sorts of crap about not being a real
SF fan, from people who should know better, and who consider themselves the
*real* SF fen, unlike us nasty TeeVee and Movie watching twits. I dislike
the term sci-fi because it is used by ignorant tabloids to classify us all
as pointed ear wearing idiots. If you had bothered to read my subsequent
post, you might have noticed that I said sorry nicely to Kris when s/he
explained who s/he was.

And that is my final word on this.

Ali

Do I dare mention that jms was both writer and producer? <g>

Ali

It's called "research". If you're aiming a particular product at a specific
demagraphic, it usually makes sense to know if they want what you're
offering.

I'm going to assume that you're joking here?

Personally, I like the conspiracy theory style story arc of things like the
X-Files (when it's done right), some of the big scale space war stuff from
B5. One of my favourite series of books is the Many Coloured Land by Julian
May. Time travel (very limited one way and only to a certain time) that
explores those travellers experiences with an alien race living on earth
during the plioscene era and the whole tying up of human evolution. The
follow on series of first contact is also very good (if a little rushed at
times). Cloning is also a current topic that could make good viewing if
dealt with properly. But please, No StarTrek rip offs. We've had too much of
ST in recent years for me, and most of it's been tripe.

So, that's my tuppence worth. I'm sure others will have different ideas.

OK, that is your opinion, and that is fair enough - you prefer the
term sf.

But that does not make sf right and sci-fi wrong. When I am talking to
people about my interests, I prefer to call it science fiction, rather
than either of the two popular abbreviations. Does this mean I should
look down my nose at people who say either sci-fi *or* sf?

Of course not.

--
Chris
Minstrel's Hall of Filk - http://www.filklore.com
Filklore Music Store - http://www.filklore.co.uk

snip very reasonable reply from Kris

I agree with what you're saying here Ali. The biggest problem I see
with the British networks attitude about SF is that "It's for kids"
mentality they seem to harbour. This is where some of -my- antipathy to
the term Sci-fi comes from, along with the local papers favourite "Sci-
fi fans invade (insert name of town/leisure attraction here)" when one
of the larger conventions rolls into town.

Kris. In my opinion the best SF TV lately has been the stuff that
doesn't look much like SF. Neverwhere and Ultraviolet are the two that
come immediately to mind from the UK and Buffy and Angel from the US.

The best suggestion I can make is to look for ideas and attitudes rather
than the obvious physical trappings of SF or Fantasy. I often think
that a minuscule budget produces some of the best programs because this
forces you to write the way out of stuff using what you can get off the
shelf rather than having a mega-discombobulator ray.

This may not make a lot of sense but it's 8.30 on a Sunday and the
coffee hasn't perked yet (ruddy kids).

--
Omega

Outside of a cat, a book is a fans best friend
Inside of a cat you realise you adopted a Kzin.

--
Omega

"Working for the BBC is like working for a cross between the Church and the Post
Office : it seldom fails to live down to expectations."

Tom Clarke

[Snip]

[Snip]

Biggest worry as far as I'm concerned...
Big multi-national companies (predominantly merkin ones) starting to be
more important than people - profit above all else - shareholders are
paramount and the effect on everyone else secondary - the companies
wanting to control everyone through the media and advertising (and
wanting to supress those who can't be controlled or who speak out
against them) - the companies "owning" the governments... etc.
Trouble is I think it's already been pretty much done to death already
(even if it is the way the world is heading).

Suzi

Chris, please don't put words in my mouth. I do not look down my nose at
such as those.

Ali

The majority of science fictions fans that I have encountered outside of
fandom really don't seem to care about the distinction. This argument over
sf and sci-fi is no better than the Star Trek fans wanting to be called
trekkers instead of trekkies. Shouldn't fandom just reclaim sci-fi and
do its best to make sure that better stuff is made under that banner.

--
Mark Sinclair

One hesitates to mention "Babylon 5" but surely that proved that
someone strong minded enough can be a writer and producer and get their
vision on air
--
Bernard M. Earp

Babylon 5 Aliens 4
(penalty shootout after extra time)

Precisely. A number of fans inside fandom couldn't give two hoots either,
apart from how the distinction is used to make people feel unwelcome.

You mean you weren't deprecating someone's use of the term sci-fi,
instead of sf?

than the anonymity..."

Also there is a little know program called, I think, "Buffy The Vampire
Slayer", whose executive producer has been known to turn out a script or
two. Perhaps we should tell him he's doing it wrong.

You are, I take it, not one of those who has ever sneered at media fen and
accused them of not being True Believers, then? That's not a dig, Chris,
it's an honest question.

Ali

Ali

I was questioning credibility and credentials, not deprecating. I do wish
you would stop trying to pick a fight, Chris, I'm really not after having
one with you, or anyone else, for that matter. I have already said sorry
nicely to Kris, what else do you want me to do in the way of grovelling? I
can't see why you are prolonging this, I've done nothing to you. That's the
end of it.

Ali

>Alison Hopkins <fn...@dial.pipex.com> writes

Get it right, please, Omega, it's "Sci-Fi fans *beam down* to <town>
("Invade?" sheesh, what do they teach them in journalism school these
days? :-)

By the way, I find "sci-fi" to be such a useful shibboleth (in the
original biblical meaning of the word) that I wouldn't dream of
correcting someone who used it.

--
Del Cotter d...@branta.demon.co.uk

Bad Man. :)

Ah, a cue for The West Wing discussion.

Ali

And the world isn't ready for a free adaptation of Pohl/Kornbluth's "The
Space Merchants"?

In my opinion (which a few people share), the USian law giving
Corporations legal status in their own right has meant that the
Corporations have become living as well as legal entities. What most
people don't fully realise is that these entities' morals and cultures
are different enough from most humans' morals and cultures that the
aliens indeed walk among us. Neil Gaiman's Teknophage [1] may be seen as
a metaphor on this point.

Humans have, generally by default or through ignorance, allowed
Corporations to attain enough power that Humans now feel threatened by
the Corporations even though they don't perceive them as living entities
(the reverse may apply; Corporations see Humans as fuel/food/lesser
beings).

Is it possible for Humans to limit Corporations' power, or will we just
sit in our mortgaged homes, watching our pay-per view TV, drinking our
Koffiest [2] and whinging that we "can't buck the market"? Should be
good for a few episodes, and the dystopian ending isn't mandatory.
--
Harry

[1] One of the myriad ideas Neil apparently dashed off on the back of a fag-
packet and handed to someone else. The Teknophage was an intelligent 65-million-
year old dinosaur who ruled several parallel Earths: his domicile was a mile-
high mobile skyscraper fuelled by the souls stripped from humans whose bodily
remains were recycled as food and drink. He appeared in a short-lived series of
comics in the late 1990s.

[2] Complete with the mild alkaloid to promote brand loyalty, of course.

OK, an honest answer to an honest question.

Although I am best known in fandom now as a filker, I attended my first
con (Seacon 84) for the sole reason of their film program. After that, I
attended a few cons, but it wasn't until Follycon that I emerged,
blinking from out of the film and video rooms and started engaging in
other fannish activities.

Although my book collection has a respectable selection of science
fiction, I probably read as much horror and crime as sf. However my DVD
and video collection is about 80% sf. Filkers will attest that a high
proportion of my filk compositions are media based, rather than literary.

I have attended Trek cons and Dr Who cons in the past, both with great
enjoyment. One of my current projects is investigating cheap ways to
produce and distribute filk videos.

So rather than sneer at the badge of "media fan" it is one I wear with
pride, right next to "filk fan" and "beer fan".

Just goes to show - you never know who you are talking to in here. <g>

Absolutely, which is why I wanted to emphasise the fact that I wasn;'t
trying to stir it with that question! :) I wonder if you've been to one of
mine?

Ali

>>You mean you weren't deprecating someone's use of the term sci-fi,
>>instead of sf?

I'm really not looking for a fight either, and I'm sorry if you see it
that way.

I was simply trying to make the point that if you question someone's
credibility, simply because they use the term sci-fi, rather than sf,
then you are questioning my credibilty, and that of quite a few others in
fandom.

I don't believe you intended it to be offensive in any way, and would be
horrified if people took it that way. But I'm afraid that to some of us
it is offensive, elitist and exclusive. If I didn't think you'd care, I
wouldn't bother to tell you.

And the ones that have good strong characters that you care about. cf, SG1
and Quantum Leap.

Blake's Seven and some Doctor Who.

Ali

I think the problem for British TV is the balance between the SF ideas
and the SF visuals. Many of the examples of good stuff have used SF
ideas with a non-SF background. Anyone remember "Bird of Prey"? That
needed no more effort on visual effects than any other contemporary
thriller, but it wasn't far from SF. Some episodes of "Bugs" also
exploited strong SF ideas.

The problems are with expressing ordinary, routine, powerful, ideas such
as the Internet. There's a lot of potential for stories about this
shadow-culture, with participants who are all image, and never meet in
the flesh, but how can you express that on TV?

Odd thought -- how would something like The Beiderbecke Affair translate
to an internet world?

Of course, you could have a few teenagers embroiled in some sort of club
culture, so that you get the bright lights and skimpy clothes and sweat-
beaded skin, but it's just as relevant to SF ideas as a computer screen
displaying "Do you want to play?" at around 5 characters per second.

Another odd thought -- people are experimenting with wearable computers.
What's the make-up cost of a little socket behind the ear, for a direct
neural connection, so that some people, willing to take the chance
(wiring a computer to the brain is hardly going to be a safe process),
are walking around, with a lot of power. Maybe, with some wort of
wireless network, fighting a secret war. Think of the Robocop-eye-view
in the movie (though please don't show an MS-DOS boot sequence).

There's a theme here: some people have the technology, and the knowledge
to use it. Some are the old-style hackers (Go and read The Cuckoo's
Egg), and some are the people who abuse the system for gain or malicious
delight. And then you have the official net police. Lord Peter Wimsey
as a wirehead hacker?

And you have two people fighting in the virtual world, each trying to
crash the other's brain, while their allies try to do an end-run in the
real world.

--
David G. Bell -- Farmer, SF Fan, Filker, and Punslinger.

If I were to go back to my schooldays, knowing what I know now, I would
pack cheese sandwiches for lunch.

Fair ewnough, and sorry if I jumped back at you. :)

It's a hot button for the reasons that Omega cited; bloody tabloid
journalism. which is an oxymoron, imo.

Cool. No problems, I see where you are coming from. Thank you.

Ali

You said it yourself -- profit above all else.

Go to the Chief Executive of a large company, and talk to him. He's
already working an 80-hour week running a company. Tell him he's got to
run the government as well, and see what he says. He'll ask you "where's
the profit in *that*?"

In the UK, it is a legal requirement for the officers of a company to
attempt to maximise the profits for the owners (aka shareholders). If
they do not strive to do so diligently, they can and will be replaced.
Shocking! Of course, a large number of these shares are held by small
investors via mutual funds. Others are held by pension funds and large
mutual benefit organisations like unions. If the company does not
attempt to maximise their profits, the returns to the funds will go down
and the payouts to the investors and pensioners will also decrease.

As for suppressing people, well, the best case I can think of a Large
Corporation trying to suppress their opponents was the McLibel case. It
turned out that the anti-McDonalds campaigners were, indeed, libelling
McDonalds by publishing falsehoods detremental to McDonald's reputation.
The defendants were offered legal assistance by McDonald's at one point,
because the case was dragging on and on and it was going to be cheaper
for McDonalds in the long run to help the defendants present their case
more clearly. McD knew they were never going to get financial
compensation for the libels, because the defendants were piss-poor. It
was going to cost McD big bucks whatever the outcome, and so it proved.

--

Robert Sneddon

I think the reason you're getting an odd reaction here is that some of
us have had unfortunate prior experience of media interest in SF - and
calling it Sci Fi is often one of the big signs of an impending
unfortunate experience.

I'm not sure that I know what makes good TV; here are a few books that I
think might work well as TV mini-series or one-off films, I'm not sure
how they would work as more extended series.

Stephen Baxter - Anti-Ice - one of the best Steampunk novels.

Philip Pullman - The "His Dark Materials" trilogy - would make an
excellent series provided you realise that although the main
protagonists are children, it isn't really a children's story.

James White - The "Sector General" novels and stories, a hospital in
space. This one could be extended almost indefinitely, I think.

Chelsea Quinn Yarbro - The "St. Germaine" vampire novels - historical
vampire stories with the vampire as the misunderstood hero.

Dave Langford - The Leaky Establishment - a lovely farce about a nuclear
weapons plant, could be great fun in the style of Blott On The Landscape
etc.

Kim Newman - The Night Mayor - a fun Virtual Reality story.

I'd strongly suggest you avoid anything that makes much use of telepathy
or ESP, it never seems to work well on TV, and time travel and
invisibility have both been done to death.
--
Marcus L. Rowland
Forgotten Futures - The Scientific Romance Role Playing Game
http://www.ffutures.demon.co.uk/ http://www.forgottenfutures.com/
"We are all victims of this slime. They... ...fill our mailboxes with gibberish
that would get them indicted if people had time to press charges"
[Hunter S. Thompson predicts junk e-mail, 1985 (from Generation of Swine)]

That one has, unfortunately, been done. I say 'unfortunately' because
the makers didn't do a particularly good job. Whoever they were
renamed their effort 'Mercy Point' - it was a very short-lived series,
which didn't even acknowledge the inspiration they so obviously got
from James White.

That's not to say, of course, that somebody else couldn't have a crack
at it and do a much better job.

Oh yes, that would be fun :-)

--
Colette
* "2002: A Discworld Odyssey" * http://www.dwcon.org/ *
* August 16th-19th, 2002 * Email: in...@dwcon.org *

I was thinking of the one when we were in Blackpool when I wrote that.
"Screaming Hordes Of Sci-fi Fans Invade Blackpool Pleasure Beach".
Harry and I spent a long afternoon there the day before that headline
was put out and we didn't see another fan the whole time. There -was-
screaming involved but that's what you're supposed to do on a roller
coaster isn't it?

Good point.

--
Omega

WereGopher From The Black Lagoon

(coming soon... honest... only eight years late)

I haven't watched enough SG1 to say about that but I agree about Quantum

The Early Doctor Who was far better written than the later ones where
they seemed to be trying to outdo the Americans on effects to the
detriment of the writing budget. A shame really.

Unfortunately the odds of an SF series not being an embarrassment are pretty
low. Even if the person with the original idea has good intentions they
usually
get ground out by the layers of 'executive decision making' required before
you
get on air.

I have played this game myself on occasion, if only as a tech support guy .
One company I worked for went bankrupt waiting for a decision from a TV or
film company (we had proposals in for 2 TV series and 1 film) and didn't
realise
until too late how slow and bureaucratic the process was going to be.

The estimate for getting a film produced is that you need 16 people to say
yes
in succession. TV is a bit less but they are slower to make up their mind.
The math
is not encouraging.

I'd seriously advise anybody thinking of this to try Canada, New
Zealand/Australia
or the USA. At the moment UK TV is far less creative and open to ideas than
any
of these (although it hurts to admit it). Even the creators of Ultraviolet
have said
they could not get it made today. The 'Red Dwarf' producers say the same
thing.

However if the required 16 miracles were to happen then I do have some
things I'd
like to see;

Something like a futuristic version of 'West Wing', or 'House of Cards'.
Perhaps the
plot could be that the UK takes the presidency of the EU for a couple of
years when
a meteor impact or solar flare takes out most of the USA. The UK has to take
charge
of picking up the pieces, plus of course participation by any other nation
that kicks in
to the programme budget :)

A computer graphics based version of Thunderbirds. Perhaps it could be
scaled up to
a group that rescues whole planetary societies from global warming,
bacteriological
warfare, overpopulation etc.

A series based on Iain Bank's Culture novels.

An alternate history show based in the Roman or medieval period. Think
of 'I Claudius' or 'Eizabeth I' crossed with West Wing. See Harry Harrison
and
Tom Holm's "Warriors of the way" series or David Drake and Eric Flint's
'Belisarius'
novels. At least the historical costumes should be available to any good TV
company.

This gets my vote.

This too.

There does seem to be a conflict inherent in TV SF. SF depends on the ideas
and
TV depends on the characters. Sometimes shows with absolutely crap ideas
have succeeded because they've been done well. 'Highlander' is a good
example of this.

Even the much maligned 'Voyager' has some excellent episodes featuring the
Doctor or
Seven.

It's about time there was a more serious animated SF show. 'Reboot' is
excellent as a comedy
and the budget required now would have fallen as computer power gets
cheaper.

Martin E

Is that the one that Diane did a couple of eps of?

Ali

You weren't at Frontiers, were you? if not, which con was it?

Ali

Not that I'm aware of - I've never heard her mention it. AFAIK they
only made 7 episodes, so it's unlikely that she was involved. One of
the sites I found while googling on the show had the nerve to say 'By
all accounts the show is very much inspired by Trey Callaway who both
produced and wrote the first episode' - making out that he'd come up
with this brand new concept all by himself. Pah!

<snort> Like yes, we believe that. There was some satellite TeeVee thing
that Diane did an ep of, and I can't remember what it was. I bet if we
summon her she will appear. <g>

Ali

--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Rules are written for those who lack the ability to truly reason, But for
those who can, the rules become nothing more than guidelines, And live
their lives governed not by rules but by reason.
- James McGuigan-

Yes to all of the above and one more thing. When you have told the story
SHUT UP!

One other thing a decent story does not need a big effects budget.
Monsters under the bed may be scarier if they stay there.
--
JFW Richards South Hants Science Fiction Group
Portsmouth, Hants 2nd and 4th Tuesdays
England. UK. The Magpie, Fratton Road, Portsmouth

Season 4 of `ReBoot' is in the works, and for all of us who were
wondering what happened after CITV pulled the plug on Season 3, it's
available in its entirety on DVD. Region 1 only of course; but this
should not present a problem for the dedicated media fan <g>.
--
Harry

Today with our hi-tech spacecraft, we can travel almost 200 miles from
the surface of the Earth. Thirty years ago we could go over 200,000
miles. No one seems to mind. That scares me.
- Roderick Gladwish

And Lexx is produced by one of the three writer team. Do we see a
pattern forming? :-)

ttfn

Martin

--
Mother Very Easily Made a Jam Sandwich Using No Peanuts, Mayonnaise or Glue

Martin Harlow mar...@freedonia.demon.co.uk

A word of warning though - the site where I found all four volumes of
Reboot for sale: http://www.advfilms.com/catitem.html?c=all&k=RB001
(which is where you get pointed to if you visit Mainframe's site) has
a bit of a problem with foreign (ie non-US) credit card purchases.
They apparently insist on a secondary form of identification, like,
for example, a photocopy of your passport. But for the dedicated media
fan, this is but a small obstacle :-)

I'm not sure what you could take from the works of writers like Cherryh
or Bujold, possibly the importance of the political machinations to the
plot. Read Machiavelli's book The Prince.

If you plan to have space battles then take a close look at the physics
in David Webber's Honor Harrington series. It's plausible and will give
you lots of scope for plot development and building suspense.

Look at the plot structures in Babylon 5 and then look back at Hill
Street Blues for some more lessons.

Look at the dialogue from Babylon 5 then look at a few episodes of MASH.

Possibly the most important thing you need to consider is the theme and
incidental music. Can you get anyone who can write an earworm? Listen to
the themes from Dragnet and Hill Street Blues.

--
Bernard Peek
b...@shrdlu.com

In search of cognoscenti

>Perhaps, what I should have asked, is what do you lot reckon is going to
>cause alot of problems for mankind in the future? e.g. cloning, space based
>weapons, poverty, etc. I want to know what people are really concerned
>about. This programme is going to be as much a comment on modern times as it
>is an SF (Im trying see : ) series. I feel that there is sooo much wrong in
>the world at the moment, and that power is being removed far away from the
>public domain, and into the hands of money giants, and politicians who care
>for no one but themselves, and their own agenda. This programme won't be
>glitze and lasers, in fact far from it I hope.

Followed later the same day by:

>please read the above message, the third one down. This isn't about making
>money. Im not looking for people to write anything, im just wanting to know
>what you lot are worried about in the world. Its hard to make people believe
>that my goals are selfless. But they trully are. If you don't believe in
>what I am trying to do, or don't believe me, then you don't have to
>contribute. But I just don't believe that everyone out there is content with
>some of the disgraceful acts going on. The programme will be political, as
>well as a look at where science could take us if put into the wrong hands,
>if in fact, it isn't in the wrong hands already.

The problem is that -- quite apart from the comments others have made
about the difficulty of getting material commissioned in the first
place -- the average television audience simply doesn't want something
as challenging as you appear to envisage. When they think about the
future -- and by that I mean the next ten or twenty years rather than
the next ten or twenty minutes -- they want something amusing, shiny
and optimistic, not something downbeat and intellectual. Consider
Star Trek; consider Gormenghast; consider why the latter got terrible
audience ratings while the former goes on and on and on. (Not even
Cleopatra 2525 qualifies as downbeat -- humanity may be living
underground because the aliens have conquered the surface, but, hey,
there's still plenty of wild parties and impossibly slender young
women in lycra bikinis....)

So I suspect that if you were to front up to the BBC or Channel 4 or
whoever with an outline for a series about (say) the wars for water
and other resources that are beginning to engulf the world fdifty
years from now as anthropogenic climate change tightens its grip and a
new era of mass migrations begins -- featuring, in the red corner, a
bunch of obviously post-Seattle-style guys in white overalls and a
nice line in mittel-Deutsch autonomen-politik and, in the blue corner,
a bunch of corporate suits from the likes of Cargill-Nakasone and
Boeing-Monsanto who talk casually of escaping to underground vaults on
the Moon -- you'd receive little more than a polite thank you and an
instruction to wait until you were called back. Offer them some
witless nonsense about a sub-Buffy type who can tell undercover aliens
from real humans by the power of her thoughts, however....

Is this too cynical? You tell me. But when I consider what's on
television these days, I wonder whether I'm being cynical enough.

>> (And if you do end up using any ideas people may give you,will they
>> receive a credit and payment for them?)

>I'm going to assume that you're joking here?

Why should I be joking?

If you were to contribute something from which somebody else made a
large amount of money, wouldn't you feel miffed at not receiving a
share of the largesse? Or do I take it that you don't mind being
ripped off?

Does anyone know if the first two seasons of 'Reboot' are available
anywhere? I know that season 3 is now out on DVD, but I saw very little of
the earlier stuff and would like to be able to catch up.

--

*** Simon Bradshaw ***
To avoid my spam-bucket replace 'filter' with 'simon'

That may be changing. The BBC killed off Dr Who because it didn't fit
their idea of what the corporation should be doing. I'm pretty sure that
they have changed their mind now. If you put together something with all
of the best features of Dr Who and the Teletubbies they would jump at
it.

There was an SF series here that was never marketed as SF. Someone finds
a gateway between the present day and the wartime years and builds a
life on both sides. Definitely SF but it was positioned as a sitcom.

We have now reached the point where a lot of the standard SF tropes have
percolated through into the public consciousness. We may soon be able to
show an SF series without needing to throw in huge infodumps to bring
the public up to speed on the stuff we take for granted. Things like
hyperspace jumps, wormholes and the fact that light-years are a measure
of distance.

You could take the same rout that Dr Who used when their budget got cut,
set things in the present day. If you're interested I (an several
hundred other members of the newsgroup) have some plot ideas for that.
One day I'll write that book....

You could take a look at some of the urban fantasy stuff, for instance
Terri Windling's Borderland books.

>
>This may not make a lot of sense but it's 8.30 on a Sunday and the
>coffee hasn't perked yet (ruddy kids).

I know that feeling, or lack thereof.

That's true in theory, in practise they have a lot of leeway. They don't
always have to take the most profitable option, although if they choose
an alternative option they will have to justify it.

Approximately 75% of industry is owned by funds on behalf of small
investors, that's people who have savings accounts or pensions.

Basically, the way I see it is that someone is going to do some sci-fi/SF
stuff and, for a change, is asking the fans for some hints and advice on
what they would like to see. I don't see anyone saying "send me your
script". On your premise I should sue every writer/producer/director going
because at one time or another, I've probably had the same idea they had
about whatever their film/tv series etc contained. It's just that they went
the distance and did something about it. But, hey, fuck it. If I were this
guy and given some of the bullshit I've seen since this topic was raised,
I'd say to myself: "doesn't matter what shit I come up with, someone will
enjoy it so why waste my time asking what they want?"

For space meetings to work at all you need a reason for ships to meet
each other which requires severely limiting freedom of movement. (There
is after all an awful lot of space in which to miss a small ship.) Jump
Gates, Worm Holes and Sub Space currents have all been used to establish
"shipping lanes" which allow encounters to happen.

A larger cast enables you to have more stories that end up changing
characters. If the story does not change the character then you have to
ask if it was worth telling it.

--

Omega wrote:

I must admit I don't think that nice shiny plastic is the way to go. I feel from
a design point of view the ships/facilities are more likely to be Outlander than
Star Trek. This gives a gutsy realism that often counterpoints the futuristic
aspect of SF.

There has been a move in the literature away from handy technical solutions and
towards problem solving and people. Also the low budget forces you to think how
to do things in an interesting way. from personal experience I designed a show
with absolutely no budget that went on to win an international theatre award in
Berlin because we had to think how to solve problems rather than buy ourselves
out of it. (there is another topic here re tech at cons but..... you all know my
opinions already so....)
This was the "advantage" of Blake's 7 and Doctor who bad production fantastic
characterization and plot. In fact my own opinion it is were british SF is
better than US SF

Well who's fault is it that you have kids. I have no sympathy. .....Yet! :-)

Sparks

Too many series have gone on when its clear that there is no more story
to tell. The fourth series of Blake's 7 the fifth of Babylon 5 and
innumerable episodes of Star Trek and the X files. The impulse is to
keep doing the series until the viewing figures drop out of sight. This,
ultimately, does no one any favours and can detract from the original
series.

Poltical monsters are good. Did you ever see the BBC 2 series 1990? From
what I can recall it would be interesting to compare some of the plot
lines against the current situation. However to have intelligent
politics one cannot assume simple motivations. One of the earlier
strengths of Babylon 5 was that the alien politics were, well, alien.
The innocent assumption of Star Trek that ultimately all beings of good
will will agree is getting real old now.

On my premise you wouldn't have any grounds to claim any revenue
because you didn't actually contribute anything to anyone. Merely
thinking about an idea (and keeping the thought to yourself) is quite
different from suggesting it in writing to someone else.

> Kim Newman - The Night Mayor - a fun Virtual Reality story.

Reminds me that lots of alternate history stories/novels would be
great fun.

Period dramas are popular (and something the UK is good at), so
alternate histories, Steampunk or scientific romances might be
things to think about.

As has been pointed out, some of the best and most successful UK SF
on TV have been fairly mainstream (Bugs, Red Dwarf, Goodnight
Sweetheart, Ultraviolet)*.

Thom

* This could be a chicken-egg thing. The "better" programmes may be
marketed at mainstream audiences.

> But that does not make sf right and sci-fi wrong. When I am talking to
> people about my interests, I prefer to call it science fiction, rather
> than either of the two popular abbreviations. Does this mean I should
> look down my nose at people who say either sci-fi *or* sf?
>

Surely that should be speculative fiction.....

Sorry couldn't resist

Sparks

Who has a very long nose to look down

The other thing is remember such things as distance, even light takes time to
travel. Aslo occlusion. a damned fine way of finding a ship in space!

At Eastercon this year we discussed Space opera and one of the main points was
that if you are going to play in space, space itself shouild be a main
character.

Sparks

2P

Nothing to do with this thread, but do you have a relative called Paul
Baguley, who was at one point a computer salesman?

Ali

Big eyed aliens that run around screaming EXTERMINATE! EXTERMINATE!?

A-GAIN! A-GAIN!

--
Del Cotter d...@branta.demon.co.uk

>Omega wrote in message ...
>>I was thinking of the one when we were in Blackpool when I wrote that.
>>"Screaming Hordes Of Sci-fi Fans Invade Blackpool Pleasure Beach".
>>Harry and I spent a long afternoon there the day before that headline
>>was put out and we didn't see another fan the whole time. There -was-
>>screaming involved but that's what you're supposed to do on a roller
>>coaster isn't it?
>
>You weren't at Frontiers, were you? if not, which con was it?

I was guessing :Illumination:, the Eastercon in 199? (3? <rummages
through badge tin> damn these badges that don't put the year on)

--
Del Cotter d...@branta.demon.co.uk

91. 93 was Helicon in Jersey.

--
Mike Scott
mi...@plokta.com

Got to be better than the same Tubby tape every morning for a week
(which is an improvement over the same Robot Wars tape every afternoon
for a month). I still like the pacifist Dalek I saw in an advert going
around saying "Give us a cuddle!"

--
Omega

WereGopher From The Black Lagoon

(coming soon... honest... only eight years late)

http://www.owlsprings.com/dbibl.htm

--
Omega

"Writing is not a profession, it is a disease."

Robert A Heinlein "Tramp Royale"

Omega wrote:

Funnily enough that's exactly what i was thinking of at the time B5 at least nodded
in that direction with down below (not very well I maust say). Though I have to be
honest B5 did cheer me up once when during a battle a fire in CnC was put out by
some bloke with a fire extinguisher!

Now that I do have sympathy with :-)

Sparks

1991 was Speculation in Glasgow, shurely? Can we compromise on 1992?

--
Del Cotter d...@branta.demon.co.uk

>Absolutely, which is why I wanted to emphasise the fact that I wasn;'t
>trying to stir it with that question! :) I wonder if you've been to one of
>mine?

I know I haven't, because we've discussed it before. Could you please
remind us which con(s) you are involved with which are coming up?

(The next mediacon I'm intending going to is the one selling
indulgences. Something about tickets for forgiveness or something. Oh,
I remember, Redemption <g>...)

((Just a friendly dig at any of the concom who are here <g>...))

And Minstrel isn't the only one here who has no problems with 'media'
fandom. Personally, I was apalled at the divisions I saw within Star
Trek fandom, where people wearing "Original Series" uniforms were
sneered at far worse than I've seen from 'trufans', and the way some
media fans sneer at others for watching the "wrong shows". Forget
'litfen' versus 'meejafen', the mediafen seem to be their own worst
enemies.

I admit that I'm not a 'media fan' in many senses, I have very limited
visual memory (I'm word oriented, not pictures). I just like some SF
shows, ranging from Knight Rider to Dark Angel via Star Trek, Star Wars,
Doctor Who and many others (and I'm not interested in whether they are
considered 'good' by other people, they are what I happen to like). I
couldn't answer questions on most of them, or name directors or stars in
any but a few instances.

(However, I do dislike 'sci-fi', not because of any associations but
because it is a horrible invented word with no pronunciation links to
its original. If it were an abbreviation, like 'HiFi', then it should
be pronounced 'sigh-fi' (the 'fi' as in 'fiction'), but it isn't. Mind
you, I don't like 'HiFi' much either...)

Chris C

>Omega wrote in message <9Jb+EXAW$id7...@menageri.tele2.co.uk>...

>And the ones that have good strong characters that you care about. cf, SG1
>and Quantum Leap.

Hmm, you would pick ones with characters I don't care about <g>.
(Although I admit I haven't watched enough SG1 to know the
characters...) Now, Dark Angel and Knight Rider (no, not Hasselhof, I
mean KITT <g>)...

>Blake's Seven and some Doctor Who.

Er, I don't think "off the shelf" meant the shelf at the local
hairdresser's <g>. Or the egg-cartons...

I think both DW and B7 were guilty of "deus ex machina" type solutions
on occasion, although they certainly weren't the worst and did have some
good plot solutions. The point as I see it is to minimise the amount of
"shoot our way out" solutions but also avoid having technology or an
outside force being the answer; I really hated the use of the Organians
in ST:TOS, and Q in ST:TNG, they are cop-outs on the same order as the
Greek "and the Gods made it all come right in the end", and the
transporter has been used as a technobabble 'solution' almost as much.
Doctor Who didn't do that too often and Blake's 7 even more rarely.

Chris C

>Cool. No problems, I see where you are coming from. Thank you.

You may have thought I've been quiet this week - I've been working away
from home, and I don't read Usenet on my laptop.

Anyway, I think it's pretty cool that we both understand each other now.

On the subject of whether I have gone to any of your cons, I don't think
so, unless you were one of those involved with Who's Seven (which is one
of the ones that I am vague on the committee of.

I nearly always make Eastercon, and the filk con(s). Occassionally a
Unicon, and then anything else I can fit in. Will happily contemplate
anything with a good film/video program.

Chris

--
Chris
Minstrel's Hall of Filk - http://www.filklore.com
Filklore Music Store - http://www.filklore.co.uk

Hey! I resemble that remark! So what have you volunteered to do for us
Chris? <g>

--
Cheers, Eddie Cochrane

You mean spec-fec, of course.

>Sorry couldn't resist

<g>

Actually, although I understand and appreciate the sf = "speculative
fiction" argument, I don't personally see it as a useful term, in matters
of clarity when talking to non-science fiction readers.

The grouping together of science fiction and fantasy has little relevence
to me (generally, I enjoy the former and, with some notable exceptions,
avoid the latter).

When I am talking to non-faanish friends and aquaintances about my
interests, I find everyone understands "science fiction", almost everyone
has heard of "sci-fi" (because of the tabloids/media), far fewer non-fans
understand the term "SF" straight off ("You like literature about San
Francisco? Isn't that a narrow genre?"), and no-one has come across
speculative fiction.

Besides, I consider the crime novels I read to be just as speculative as
science fiction.

'92 seems more likely to me, for personal reasons (I was at
Illumination, and I'm pretty certain that I didn't go to the Eastercon
in '91).

Chris C