Drinking on Simchas Torah

An informal survey: When do you start drinking on Simchas Torah, and how
much? This post was initiated due to an unfortunate incident in San
Francisco. An acquaintance of mine got sick at the home of a young rabbi
who was ill equipped to deal with such things, after the acquaintance had
come from the home of another rabbi, where he had drunk a great deal, along
with the associated dancing and singing (we hopped over to that rabbi's
house after our seudah, my son and I left that rabbi's house early,
unfortunately the other fellow did not).

We know that Simchas Torah is not Purim, and there is no halachic reason for
heavy drinking. However, it is not unusual for people to overdo it in the
Bay Area, especially in the Chabad Simchas Torah celebrations, where hakafos
can go on seemingly forever. At Chabad, at least in the Bay Area, there is
usually a kiddush after Hallel and before the Attoh Hareisas, and prople are
usually pretty twisted by the time the Attoh Hareisas are over, and there's
drinking all through the hakafos. This is in stark contrast to some
synagogues, where people make a small kiddush and l'chaim after their
aliyos, and then things proceed as on any yom tov (this is the exception
rather than the rule in the Bay Area). Usually, at nonChabad shuls, there
is usually something in between those two levels of drinking (here again,
I'm only talking Bay Area). At the shul we were in, there was no kiddush or
drinking until after Musaf at the seudah (actually, I prefer a little bit
more, though not a "bachanalia"). Needless to say, the rabbi at whose house
the unfortunate incident took place is a modest drinker with a great deal of
energy, who doesn't need to be drunk to be "lively" on Simchas Torah (a
relative newcomer to the Bay Area, musmach of a major Brooklyn nonchassidish
yeshivah), and who was terribly disgusted.

Anyway, I'm just curious as to how other communities pattern their drinking,
and if there are any community standards. I think that in the Bay Area, due
to the influence of Chabad, people expect a certain amount of drinking, at a
level perhaps higher than "Litvish standard". I told the rabbi that this
kind of thing is not at all unusual at Simchas Torah, and he said that it
just didn't happen among "his circle".

Craig Winchell
GAN EDEN Wines

I rarely drink on Simchas Torah (at least no more than the usual l'Chaim
at kiddush or whatever). And, with the exception of my one experience in a
Lubavitch center near my undergraduate university, have I seen it really
to be done much in any shul I've been involved with.

I've gotta wonder, though, with the scenarios you relate below...isn't it
a real problem to be sauced before one davens musaf? I'm suprised than any
responsible rav would allow this to go on. I think the worst I ever did
was take one or two l'chaims during hakafos, and I was one of the few.

JO

[..]

A Lubavitch rabbi of my close aquaintance told me that it was
"impossible for a Yid to get drunk" - the function of the alcohol is
to elevate the nashama (soul). Given that he is a light drinker at
worst, I don't think he really understands the affects of large
amounts of alcohol on the mind...

Another (famous) (L) rabbi of my aquaintance makes kiddush on (the
best) vodka and I attended his kiddush and farbrengen this Simchat
Torah. Very nice.

That being said, I think that alcohol excesses among Jews are minimal,
given the ritual use of alcohol (wine) in Judaism and the fact that
since it is so familiar, its less likely to be abused.

David

Jess Olson <j...@stanford.edu> writes:

>> BS"D

Linux. (Sorry.)

Here's a data point ... Our shul sets out a variety of potables on a
table (with a bit o' cake). After each person's aliyah, said person
makes kiddush on whatever beverage is preferred.

FWIW, since I'm one of the Ba'alei K'riah (I hope I transliterated
that correctly, or somebody's going to make a tasteless joke), I go
for grape juice for my kiddush. At the honoree's luncheon afterwards,
I had a wee dram of vodka, however.

This must be a pretty old problem, though. After all, the kohanim
don't duchen at mussaf on Simchat Torah. Presumably, they've had at
least a revi'it of wine, so they're at least a bit mellow.

--
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[This may appear twice. If so, my apologies.]

Jess Olson <j...@stanford.edu> writes:

>> BS"D

Linux. (Sorry.)

>> An informal survey: When do you start drinking on Simchas Torah,

Here's a data point ... Our shul sets out a variety of potables on a

> I've gotta wonder, though, with the scenarios you relate

This must be a pretty old problem, though. After all, the kohanim

It is probably a problem. We should not daven Amidah when really drunk--
not only do we need to say it properly, but we also are required to know
what we're doing when we're saying it (assuming we could say the words
properly when "sauced"). However, how much drinking is too much for that?
Depends on the person. The reason we have the Birkas Kohanim during
Shacharis is because the Kohanim are not permitted to perform any of the
Avodah after having drunk *any* alcohol. I don't know at what point, on the
other hand, we have drunk too much alcohol to be permitted to daven Musaf
Amidah.

Wait a sec...this isn't the sole reason that kohanim don't duchen, though,
is it? I'd be surprised...why not just say that kohanim shouldn't drink?
As Craig pointed out, drinking on Simchas Torah isn't a mitzvah, its a
minhag (and from my experience, not a really strong one)

JO

[snip]

At the Chabad shuls here in Boston some people get plastered. It's one
of the reasons I stopped going there on Simkhat Tora. This year, I
went to the Chabad shul for the eve of Shmini Atzeret and regretted it
- 3 out of about 15 people were drunk enough to stagger around, yell
"Yekhi" at every turn, and refer to non-Chabad Jews in insulting
terms. One passed out after the 4th hakafa. For Simhat Tora I went to
the Talner shul. Not a drop of liquor there, but the evening hakafot
lasted more than 3 hours, with non-stop dancing and singing - a
geniune simkha. The morning ones took about half that time, again with
much rejoicing. And no BS over the "ata hareitas."

Yisroel Markov Boston, MA Member
www.reason.com -- for unbiased analysis of the world DNRC
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As a kid growing up in a large suburban C shul, I didn't know about
the concept of drinking in Simchat Torah (or on Purim for that matter.)
I always thought that the only alcoholic beverage allowed on synagogue
property was sweet kiddush wine.

I was introduced to the concept of hard liquor boozing on Simchat Torah in my
30's when I davened at a centrist O
synagogue where the bar opened after hallel was finished. (they also
duchened in shacharit to ensure that the BAC level of the kohanim
was suitable for their prayer.) As they only had one place for
everybody to get their aliya, most of us basically milled around doing
herring and Johnnie Walker (black label) shots until out turn came up.

During the hakafot, several guys ended up dancing on the table, and I
got into an unfortunate argument with a guy about the relative merits of C
vs. O Judsiasm. It didn't end up in fisticuffs or anything, but who
wants to argue during "the time of our rejoicing?" But then, I couldn't
just leave his unjustified coments unanswered. We did shake hands at the
and, so I guess it was all right, except that I had a nice headache at
lunch.

It was interesting that the next year, the rabbi adjusted the festivities to
reduce the vailability of distilled spirits, and had group aliyot so as to
reduce the drunken down time. (The rabbi was also much more gracious about
my C affiliation, and gave his regards to my C rabbi, of whom he had
nice things to say.)

(For purposes of lashon hara prevention the name of the community is
witheld, though I will say that it is in a major metropolitan area in the
eastern half of North America.)

At my current C shul, they are so puritantical that they even do kiddush with
only grape juice, let alone simchas torah. The few of us who do bring a little
something to make l'chayim are made to feel like clients at a detox center.
However I find that 2-3 shots of 80-100 proof distilled spirits is
useful to overcome my middle-class professional-yuppie inhibitions against
dancing around with a Torah scroll. Any more and I get a nasty headache about
the time we start musaf.

(Again, name and location of congregation witheld to protect the
"innocent.")

Arik

I learned in a different e-forum that in Israel, they don't.

This disease of turning Simchas Torah into a quasi-Purim is not universal.

In our shul, it's limited to Simchas Torah morning. And we take turns
guarding the stash to make sure no one who is under age gets any.

-mi

--
Micha Berger The mind is a wonderful organ
mi...@aishdas.org for justifying decisions
http://www.aishdas.org the heart already reached.
Fax: (413) 403-9905

>BS"D

Don't you mean "Simcha Franciso"?

Yup. Same in Park Slope, which was demi-Chabad. The locals weren't too
bad, but the imports from Crown Heights, well, some of them didn't know
when to say when, and we locals worried about availability of alcohol to
minors.

Forever? Try Chaim Berlin. They go on all afternoon. I have no idea about
their drinking habits, though.

That's how it is in Lincoln Square. There's a little kiddush, and one of
the rabbis may wander around with a bottle of mashke if people want to make
a little lechaim, but that's about it. In my shul in Flatbush, it's dry.
Completely. They use grape juice for kiddush. We gave the kidush on
Simchat Torah, in memory of Debbie's father who went on S"T three years
ago, and had to bring our own wine - we don't drink grape juice because
of the sugar content.

We still managed to have a good time.

--
Jonathan Baker | Ksivechsimetoiveh!
jjb...@panix.com | (It's a contraction, like Shkoiech, or Brshmo)
Webpage: <http://www.panix.com/~jjbaker/>

Correct. Because in Israel, Simchat Torah is celebrated on Shmini
Atzeret (where there is Yizkor). We started at 06:30 am and finished
quite late [tm]: 10:30 !

As I posted on Micha's list: there used to be "Seudot Chatanim" (dinners)
AFTER services, where those who were given "Chatan Torah" and "Chatan
Bereshit" were honored. However, there was NEVER EVER halachic permission
to drink DURING services. This is a perversion as are the unbelievably
rowdy things that occur on Simchat Torah in certain American syngagogues;
abhorrent things (tying a tallit; turning chazzan upide down) that have
zero halachic validity.

In my post on Micha's list, I listed extensive primary sources on the
history of Simchat Torah. Since I rarely keep my own posts, Micha may
want to repost what I wrote.

Josh

Walking would have been easier :-)

Sadly we did not have a minyan so the ArK and the drink cabinets stayed
shut :-(

I have been at Chabad twice once on a normal Shabbos and once at the end
of Pesach. Not problematic levels of drinking just to the levels of
merryness rather than drunkeness.
Letting one's hair down once is a while does no harm.

I think a good drink would kill.
It surprises me the if "Litvish standard" of consumption is high as
Litwaks or Russians couldn't distill their way out of a wet paper bag.

Our community is along the lines of "more tea vicar" the phrase which
was discussed a few weeks ago here. Understandable for A' family shul.
Any more than an Aberdonian sized kiddush wine and one would be branded
an alcoholic. But I wouldn't base anything you do on our community.

--
Z
Remove Zeds in e-mail address to reply.

Anecdotal evidence. My friend, a different one, told me of a minhag
he had with his father. One year his father would get drunk and he
would help him home. The following year they reversed the roles.

Moshe Schorr
It is a tremendous Mitzvah to always be happy! - Reb Nachman of Breslov
May Eliyahu Chayim ben Sarah Henna (Eliot Shimoff) have a refuah Shlaima.

snip

Another data point. In our minyan in Israel, we make _one_ "community"
kidush between one hakafo and the next. The one who makes kiddush
drinks a reviis of the grape juice. All others drink soda and eat
kugel, cake and cholent. As a result, our kohanim duchen at _both_
Shacharis and Mussaf, as they do every Shabbos and Yom Tov. In the
weekdays, they duchen at Shacharis.

:>BS"D

Speaking as the kiddush lady for our women's tefilla group at LSS, we hve
a junk food kiddush, mostly from Walmart (Potato chips, pretzels,
crackers, sancwich sookies, chocolate covered grahams, shocolate chip
cookies). Have you any idea of how much stuff yu can but there for less
than $20.00, for people to eat after their aliyot(no barachu guys) and we
have both shul supplied sweet wine and grape juice. Grape juice is, by
far the preferred beverge. I am always stuck because of the sugar content
of both these libations. Maybe, next year I will bring a small bit of
Alfasi or some other dry wine for my own use.

Wendy Baker

Yechi (kh for het???) is pretty good compared to what I heard (and screamed)
in Chabad shuls or even 770 on Shmini Atzeres/Simchas Torah back in my
Chabad days! And we were equal opportunity insultors - Chabad, non-Chabad,
the 770 leadership, the local misleadership, senior shluchim around the
world - who cares - they all merited a kush in tuches :).

Ian

>Speaking as the kiddush lady for our women's tefilla group at LSS, we...

I've been thinking about getting you that for Chanukah: a box of Alfasi
to let sit for two years before you try to drink it. Cheap now ($6/bottle),
very nice later.

"Creedmoor Chronicles, Ltd (Tirana, Albania)" <icsrcoup...@matrix.ru>
wrote in message news:anchro$d2j4n$1...@ID-98143.news.dfncis.de...

What about the Rebbe z"l or was he shlita then?

--
Henry Goodman
henry....@virgin.net

That depended on how drunk or otherwise deluded one was.....

Ian

At our shul, we make kiddush at night and during the day right after
Kaddish Tiskabel. Most people have a lechaim or two. At night there is a
bit more drinking, but I have never seen anyone really shikur.

At Chabad, the situation is much different on Simchas Vodka. They usually
have some bochrim come in. The Shalichim and the bochrim get totally
snockered. Some of the young locals and many of the Russians also get
very drunk. The moshichism comes out of the closet. They usually make a
massive kiddush at night before Hakkafot with a fully meal. In the day
time things are a bit more subdued. I try to avoid Chabad on Simchas
Vodka.

Sorry to disappoint you, Harry. I spent Simchas Torah at the shul
in northern New Jersey where my son is the rav (first time in 41
years that I was away from 770 for Simchas Torah). I brought
bochurim with me. Yes we all drank some vodka (after we ran out
of Crown Royal). And we had food too. Small kiddush first nite
before hakkafos; larger kiddush with cholent Shabbos afternoon.
Big kiddush second nite before hakkafos. And even more food
second day. But I saw nothing remotely resembling what you
described here. And certainly the only thing that came "out of
the closet" was a bottle of grape juice for the one or two folks
who refused to drink anything stronger.

Still better than the local situation. Queries such as this one around here
would garner a reply of "Simchas what??"
<sigh>

Eliyahu

It's probably a California thing. As I said earlier, the Chabad groups out
here (possibly with the exception of Rabbi Hecht, since I've never been to
his shul, so I don't know what goes on there) tend to promote it as a party,
drawing Jews from outside orthodoxy, bringing them in contact with Torah.
But in their attempt to draw people with the promise of a party, they tend
to go overboard on the booze. I try to no longer spend Simchas Torah in
Chabad communities here because I'm too old to drink like that, and I always
seem to get drawn in.

Well, you're welcome to come down to Sebastopol if you want to renew your
spirit. We don't live in a community, but we get along just fine (except
for chinuch). It's much easier to live in the boonies of yiddishkeit when
you have a (Jewish) family around as support, and places within a couple
hour's drive to go when one is burnt out.

> <sigh>
>
> Eliyahu

snip

I recall Purim 1990. That was the day the Gulf War ended. I was
conscripted for a month as a member of Hagah, the Civil Defense.

We didn't know the war would end then. For Purim a nice lively party
was aranged. It was a pleasure to see the religious and non-religious
soldiers enjoying themselves together because it was Purim. I remember
thinking that Moshiach will have an easier job convincing everybody
to keep Purim, than to keep Pesach!

Who is it that they proclaim to be Moshiach when they are in this state? I
certainly participated in such festivities at one time, but I hardly
proclaimed anyone to be Moshiach - I probably proclaimed a number of people
to be schmucks and putzes, and invited all and sundry to kush mayn tuches!

Ian

I am sure you are right. I was referring to one specific Chabad House,
where traditionally Shikrus is a problem.

--
Harry J. Weiss
hjw...@panix.com

I belong to a Conservative congregation, and I haven't seen anybody
getting drun on ST or even on Purim.

--
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Am I mistaken or did the last Lubavitcher Rebbe try to cut down
on drinking in Chabad?

The Previous Rebb, R. Yosef Yitzchak, issued a ban against people
under the age of forty drinking more than three or four SMALL
cups at any occasion. The Rebbe reiterated this ban at certain
intervals. But there were also one or two memorable occasions
when he lifted the ban for that day.

news:3DA05FF9...@concentric.net...

So has that ban disappeared now you no longer have a living Rebbe?

--
Henry Goodman
henry....@virgin.net

Henry, this same old refrain is getting a little tired. Give it a
rest.

BS"D

If I can put in my 2 cents, please, without in any way trying to offend. Do
most Chabad rabbis know about the ban? The reason I ask is that the vast
majority of Chabad rabbis in northern California are baalei teshuva, and
they tend to be very hard drinkers at both Simchas Torah and Purim, and
sometimes for regular fahrbrengen. Rabbi Hecht, of course, is from a
longtime Chabad family, and I don't know what he does, bbut I would suspect
that he is not a really heavy drinker. and yes, for the most part I'm
talking about Chabad rabbis with real semicha, although there is at least
one in SF who is addressed as "Rabbi" but who does not have real semicha,
and he's also a heavy drinker at festive occasions. In any case, I would
suspect that the nature of a ban such as this has not been made clear at the
yeshiva level, and many, especially certain baalei teshuvah rabbis, may not
know about it. How else could we reconcile the known wild behavior on the
West Coast (known by me and others living on the West Coast) with the more
staid behavior (according to your own experience) of those in longtime
chabad communities?

Did the _contents_ make any difference?

If it was just for the day. I'm _sure_ it was "memorable". :-)

Mitzvah Gedoila LISHTOIS be'Simcha Tamid - Avnei Skila. :)

Ian