Quantcast FiveThirtyEight: Politics Done Right: Instant Run-Off Proposed by Brown

2.07.2010

Instant Run-Off Proposed by Brown

In a move that is as blatantly political as it is overdue, Gordon Brown this week announced his support for a referendum on the so-called "Alternative Vote" proposal that has made its way around for the last few years.

Known to the rest of the world as the "Instant Run-Off," the proposed new system is far from the proportional representation system that dominates continental Europe. However, it is would have an important impact on the numbers game in UK politics, particularly in close elections like this one.

We will start with the figures about what would mean in an electoral context, understanding that, of course, it would not be in place for this election given the need for a referendum beforehand.

The main added-value of the AV (we'll use the British acronym for now) is that it allows voters to rank their choices, rather than just voting for one prospective MP. In effect, you can still cast that initial protest vote or two without losing the chance to cast your final lot with the lesser of the two remaining evils if your top choice candidate does not make it. In an American context, it would be like if in 2000 all the Ralph Nader voters in Florida could have had their votes switched to their second choice candidate in the case when no candidate reached a majority initially.

If enacted, this would likely have an important impact on quite a number of House of Commons constituencies.
In the last general election in the UK (2005), only 220 seats were won with a majority of the voter -- just barely above one-third of the House of Commons' 646 constituencies. Among the major parties, Labour fared the best, with almost 37 percent of their seats won by majority, while the Conservatives and Liberal Democrats had far fewer, along with the regional parties.

In some cases, mainly in places with strong regional parties, small parties can capitalize on the split vote to prevail. For example, in the "Bethnal Green and Bow" constituency of east London, the left-wing Respect party was able to beat out a safe Labour MP with just 35.9 percent of the vote to Labour's 34.0 percent.

However, in most cases it is the large parties (Tories and Labour) who profit from the current system, where the first past the post system casts a bit of a chilling effect on voters who would otherwise vote for third parties. For example, in the Ynys Mon constituency of Wales, the Labour MP prevailed with just 34.6 percent of the vote, followed by the regional Plaid Cymru party candidates 31.1 percent, an independent right-wing candidate with 14.7 percent, the Conservative Party's 11 percent and the Liberal Democrats 7 percent.

So what is the political imperative for Brown to push this proposition forward at this time? Quite simply, it is to appeal to the Liberal Democrats, with whom lie Labour's likely remaining chance at staying in government. In the case of a hung parliament, as we discussed a couple weeks back, the Lib Dems will hold an important swing position.

According to pollster Angus Reid, about 40 percent of Britons would vote in favor of the AV scenario if given the chance, as compared to 31 percent for the present system. At the same time, 6 percent said they would not vote at all and 23 answered "Don't know." However, a majority (52 percent) said that they would welcome a referendum on this issue, while just 20 percent said they would not (28 percent not sure). There was a slight regional variation on the vote, with Scottish, Welsh and English Midlands voters more in favor of the AV than the rest of voters (London, England South and England North).

This indicates good politics for Brown, though the media and most political elites see apparent pandering at play. And for the Lib Dems, who are the clear targets of the policy, this could mean important gains if enacted.

In 2005, there were 32 seats where the Liberal Democrat candidate was within 20 percentage points of the winner, who was either a Tory or from Labour, where the winner got 40 percent or less of the vote.

In each of these cases, the Lib Dems could win by taking half the votes from the losing major party candidate and be victorious (as long as there was no other competitive third party, like a regional party). For example, in Hampstead and Highgate (in north London), the Lib Dem candidate has performed successively better over the last three elections. An AV swing from either or both of the big parties toward the Lib Dem could result in a pickup.

Is it enough to get Nick Clegg and his team on board with Labour in the case of a hung parliament? Certainly not. But the joint draws of a slightly improved electoral landscape and the trapping of governing office may be hard to pass up. Is not the purpose of politicking to finally get to the levers of power?

Next up in our UK general election coverage: We will tackle the troublesome problem of translating national horserace numbers into actual MP totals, something that every observer of the election is trying to negotiate.
---
Renard Sexton is FiveThirtyEight's international affairs columnist and is based in Geneva, Switzerland. He can be contacted at sexton538@gmail.com

81 comments

Brian Jenkins said...

Do you think this is a serious proposal that will ever be voted on, or just a ploy by Brown to forge a new Lib/Lab Pact?

kbloom said...

Why is everyone instereated in Instant Runnoff Voting, when Condorcet is much more mathematically stable, can estimate election results with only partial returns, and offers the same advantages that IRB purports to offer?

Jay Blanc said...

It's my opinion that the Liberal Democrats will *only* align in coalition with a party that enacts at least AV, and would much prefer stronger Proportional Representation reforms.

There is next to no chance of the Conservative Party offering such, as it would keep them out of power for a generation due to losing the edge they have over Lib Dem target seats.

Adam Ramsay said...

I don't think this is about pandering to the Lib Dems as such - Brown is proposing a referendum on the day of the election - if people vote yes, then they would have to enact it at the next election. It is much more abut putting the Tories on the wrong side of change, and also about the belief that there is a progressive majority in the UK, meaning that Lib Dem/Green votes will more often than not, transfer to Labour over the Tories, giving Labour a better chance overall.

Robert said...

The Labour Party uses AV internally - sometimes in this form and sometimes in the form of having immediate reballots after the poorest performing candidate is eliminated.

The latter allows of some more subtle jockeying that politicos enjoy, based on certainties. So better the former, imho.

As far as the Conservatives are concerned - the uber-Tory Boris Johnson was elected mayor of London on the basis of AV so they should have no fears that it will nesessarily disadvantage them in a wave election.

genghis said...

"Cymru Plaid" ?

Not getting substantially better, are you? I suppose at least you didn't call them Nazis this time.

Jay Blanc said...

The London Mayor election was in unusual circumstances tho, and would not be reflected nationally. Even then, it was a relatively close election, and it probably unlikely to be repeated at the next Mayoral race.

It also had the very strange effect of the Lib Dem candidate, who apparently did not understand the concept of AV, accuse the Labour candidate of "attempting to steal his Second Preference votes", and apparently not wanting people to put a second preference.

Jacob said...

I wonder though if IRV would greatly advantage the LibDems. There are probably some constituencies where a LibDem could win without the spoiler issue being a factor, but cases where they came within 20 seems a little too broad.

It seems more likely that constituencies leaning marginally to Labour or the Tories might become somewhat safer.

Here on our side of the pond, IRV hasn't had an enormously beneficial effect for minor parties where it has been implemented.

LeeSharpe said...

This is interesting, but still seems inferior to me than Concordant, and while Concordant is actually "ideal", I would probably prefer Approval Voting over anything, just because I think asking voters to rank candidates may be too difficult.

Pan said...

#2: kbloom said...

Why is everyone instereated in Instant Runnoff Voting, when Condorcet is much more mathematically stable, can estimate election results with only partial returns, and offers the same advantages that IRB purports to offer?


Because I can explain IRV to my Mom.

bdrasin said...

Its "Plaid Cymru", not "Cymru Plaid". Other than that this is a good analysis.

Keith Martin said...

Under European Union law, all EU Parliament elections must be run by a proportional representation system (although they don't specify which). So the UK has been using a PR system for some years for European elections, and has transitioned it into most local elections too.
It was inevitable that it would eventually reach national elections: Labour had even toyed with introducing it at the start of the current Parliament (and is probably kicking itself for not having done so!).

juvanya said...

Did anyone else think Scott Brown when they saw this? ._.

Alon Levy said...

Pan, you can explain Approval and Condorcet to your mom, too. Approval is "You vote for as many or as few candidates as you like, and the person with the most votes wins." In Russia they use that system in the negative form, where you cross out candidates you find unacceptable, and it worked fine in Russia's democratic phase in the 1990s. Condorcet is "You rank the candidates, and whoever wins in a two-way match against everyone else wins."

Duncan said...

Well Alon, despite having a lot of experience with STV and MTV systems, I couldn't make head or tail of your description of Condorcet. And it must be said that if I was thinking of an example of a flourishing democracy it wouldn't be Russia (I was there last week...).

So either Pan's mom is brighter than I am (entirely possible), or the systems ain't that simple.

To be honest, I think there is a much simpler and more important change that needs to be made in the UK - compulsory voting. We need to force people to engage in the process, and require politicians to go after every vote. I would temper this by adding a NOTA candidate (none of the above)...

Jacob said...

@Alon

What if no one wins a two-way match against everyone (i.e. candidate A beats B but not C, while B beats C)?

WadeJ said...

We've had preferential voting in Australia for decades. It works very well and gives minority candidates a powerful way to endorse the big parties by providing "how-to-vote" cards to their supporters. This allows the greens to have a seat at the table in an election, even though they won't get above 5% of the vote, that 5% is usually enough to tip a close race, if the voters follow the how-to-vote example (which most people do.

Pan said...
This post has been removed by the author.
Edward Carlsson Browne said...

Adam Ramsay - Brown is not in fact proposing a referendum on the day of the election. He's proposing a bill that establishes that a referendum must take place by Autumn 2011. This is significant, because Cameron could repeal it. The gamble is that he'll hurt his image by cancelling the referendum.

Also, it's worth mentioning that European PR has its downsides too. It tends to rely on list-based systems, which take away any form of constituency link and unnecessarily empower party apparatuses.

Pan said...

@Alon

Yeah, that description does nothing for me, even. I'm talking about explaining how to count the votes. With IRV, I can give a pretty short and understandable explanation of how to count the ballots that just about anyone with a high school education can understand well enough to explain to someone else.

I've read about Condorcet several times in the past, and yet even then I had to refresh myself with you posted your comment. And I consider myself a pretty cerebral person.

All you really have to do is look at where Condorcet is used to have some proof of its approachability. According to wikipedia, "Condorcet methods are not known to be currently in use in government elections anywhere in the world." It was once used in city elections in a town in Michigan in the 1920s.

Who does use it? - the Wikimedia Foundation, Debian, Software in the Public Interest, Gentoo, Free State Project, etc. Starting to notice a trend there?

On the other hand, ballot reformers have been successful in getting IRV in place all over the world. It's not made it up the the federal or gubernatorial level in the US yet, but it's being used even in large US cities. The momentum is there to have it go to higher levels. If it's possible for anything to change the current system, it's going to be IRV.

I'm not in any way impeaching the utility of Condorcet. I think this is one of those cases of trying to avoid having the Perfect be the enemy of the Good. I think the Condorcet method is the closest to perfect, but the IRV is quite good. Yes, it has problems but overall it solves more serious problems. It might also be able to serve as a "gateway drug" to more complex approaches like Condorcet.

But for now, Condorcet simply doesn't have an approachability for the layman beyond "well, you just vote for who you want in order and then don't worry about how your vote will be counted because it'll all work out."

Brendan said...

The problem with Condorcet isn't explicability, per se, it's that it fails a gut-level "fairness" check for a lot of people, because it's possible to win despite having been no one's first preference. You could maybe sell this as "that means it's a good compromise", but not, I suspect, to an electorate who've spent so much of the time in FPTP.

(And while basic Condorcet is easy to explain, it's not without complexities in certain edge cases. With 600+ seats being elected, one of those is going to happen somewhere and become a story about how ridiculous the new voting system is.)

Brown's sudden conversion to the wonders of AV may be looking ahead to wooing the Lib Dems in a possible hung parliament*, as Renard says, but it also seems to be an attempt to forestall the Tories staying in power longer than a single term if they do win outright. Brown's outright stated that he's willing to invest large amounts of political capital in getting a law on the books for an October referendum in the remaining Parliamentary time before the election. It's possible this would backfire, with the result of such a referendum in the event of a Tory victory being a rejection of such obvious politicking, but we'll see.

* though the number of possible scenarios in which the Lib Dems actually are kingmakers in a Hung Parliament is much smaller than the total number of Hung Parliament scenarios, thanks to the "Others". (I'm not sure it's terribly politic to refer to them as "regional parties", btw, given that we're talking about parties whose policies generally revolve around the idea that their areas of the UK are in fact independent nations. The implicit claim that Wales, for example, is a "region", lies somewhere between being inaccurate and highly charged.)

T said...

"Known to the rest of the world as the Instant Run-Off"

Well no, the the term "IRV" isn't really used outside of the United States.

T said...

"Is it enough to get Nick Clegg and his team on board with Labour in the case of a hung parliament? Certainly not. But the joint draws of a slightly improved electoral landscape and the trapping of governing office may be hard to pass up. Is not the purpose of politicking to finally get to the levers of power?"

I think the Lib Dems would be mad to enter a coalition without agreement to introduce proportional representation (PR).

Without PR they would be in power for one term (at most) then out again until the next hung parliament, in maybe another 30 years or so. IRV (aka AV) wouldn't significantly change that fact.

If PR is introduced the Lib Dems would be almost guaranteed a place in government for the forseeable future.

Bram said...

Before this completely devolves into a pie-fight over obscure voting methods (I'll take Range or Approval, FWIW), if this is a ploy to get third-party support (from the LibDems), then it is a stupid one. While this kind of voting kind of sounds like it would help third parties, if you think it through it does not. In fact, it is quite devastating to third party chances in Australia, where it is used for the House seats.

Reasoning here.

Jacob is right:
"Here on our side of the pond, IRV hasn't had an enormously beneficial effect for minor parties where it has been implemented."

Rather an understatement actually.

RevRog said...

I live in the UK and would agree that the present system is broken. The last time any party secured a majority of the popular vote and formed the government was 1935. Generally they get in with about 40% of the vote yet claim they have a mandate for all their policies. In reality a minority of the electorate (single figures of percentage) in a minority of seats (probably 50-100)choose who will form the next government.

Obviously the system needs to be one where the voter can indicate their preference simply, either by placing all the candidates in order of preference or indicating a first and second choice. Some systems that have been trialled have been too confusing at first.

I agree that any system that uses lists gives the party insiders more say in selecting who gets elected but it does not need to break the link with a particular constituency. A multi-member constituency can be divided into sectors and one of those elected assigned to each sector. Not perfect but possible.

Ambi Valent said...

Bram:

Please consider the alternatives here are the use of FPTP or AV for the UK. Everything else isn't even on the table.

And the reasoning that AV supports tactical voting doesn't really work, because that could also happen with approval or range voting. The supporters of a candidate that would normally get second place would simply vote against the expected winner, even if he was their second choice, because they want their first choice to win.

Alon Levy said...

Okay, so Condorcet isn't used in any real-world government elections. However, approval vote is extensively used in Eastern Europe.

With 600 seats elected, there is bound to be a case of IRV breaking down, too. IRV and two-round voting both have cases where voting for your favorite candidate can make him lose.

In Israel there actually seemed to be a risk of this problem appearing in 1999. The candidate who placed third in the first-round polls, Mordechai, was a heavy favorite to win in the second round if he qualified. The candidate who placed second in the polls, Barak, was only a slight favorite. Mordechai's Center Party mentioned this multiple times in its election commercials. While Mordechai was viable, for supporters of first-place Netanyahu it was rational to vote Barak in the first round to increase Netanyahu's chances of winning. (At the end, the bottom fell out of Mordechai's support, and all candidates except Barak and Netanyahu dropped out days before the election. Barak then won 56-44.)

Anthony said...

"What if no one wins a two-way match against everyone (i.e. candidate A beats B but not C, while B beats C)?"

You'd have to use a "tiebreaker" method like ranked pairs.

Anthony said...

"Also, it's worth mentioning that European PR has its downsides too. It tends to rely on list-based systems, which take away any form of constituency link and unnecessarily empower party apparatuses."

I'd just like to point out that parties in the UK already essentially have complete power over the MP's and have had for some time. The US is also heading towards this.

In STV and with small regional party lists, independents could make a bid. And independents are going to be the only ones with any independence anyway. But they are going to have virtually nill power any way unless a group of independents hold the balance of power (like in Ireland a while back). And when they hold the balance of power... they generally ask for pork for their districts.

Anthony said...

"A multi-member constituency can be divided into sectors and one of those elected assigned to each sector. Not perfect but possible."

That would necessitate doing absurd things like having a a Green who won 15% of the vote in a five member STV districts represent one of the constituencies. You could assign him to the district where he got the most votes, but that would probably only be like 20%.

I guess you could sell it under giving the constituency a local person to talk to who's in parliament. But since the MP's electoral fortunes wouldn't be tied to the district the link would, at best, be charity from the MP.



"The problem with Condorcet isn't explicability, per se, it's that it fails a gut-level "fairness" check for a lot of people, because it's possible to win despite having been no one's first preference. You could maybe sell this as "that means it's a good compromise", but not, I suspect, to an electorate who've spent so much of the time in FPTP."


I think in a system that used Condorcet the LibDems would become political juggernauts, and would possibly win the majority. They'd definitely get at least a third of the seats and become a necessary partner in ever coalition. It would be a much different political world.

The thing about IRV and Condorcet is that they elect people from the electoral "team" with the greatest amount of votes. This is a very huge simplification, but in IRV the voters from the "team" basically select the winner from amongst themselves. In Condorcet, every voter selects the winner from that team. So Condorect usually selects the most moderate person. Only in seats with Labour or Conservative dominance could Labour or Conservatives win, because they're so offensive to so many people on the other side.

Dale Sheldon said...

The truth is, with a strategic electorate, instant runoff gives results that 100% identical to plurality. And once people have a few elections worth of experience to draw on, they will vote strategically.

One commenter mentioned how "successful" IRV has been for them in Australia for third parties. Guess how many parties have seats in the IRV-elected house of Australia's congress? Two.

The Australian SENATE uses STV, single transferable vote, which is what IRV was based on, but while STV is a system of proportional representation (PR), IRV is a single-winner method. The Australian senate has about 9% representation for third-parties, but IRV, by dropping the PR portions, loses ALL of that.

IRV doesn't help third parties win elections; it doesn't even completely stop them from being spoilers. All it does is increase how many votes they need to get before they spoil the election.

In the US, the Green Party has been duped into supporting IRV, even though it will do absolutely nothing to help them. So if this trick worked on the US Greens, I wouldn't be surprised if it also works to trick UK third parties; just disappointed.

(Condorcet isn't as great as it first sounds either; add another shout-out for approval voting or score voting. A picture is worth 1,000 words: http://www.rangevoting.org/BayRegsFig.html )

Jay Blanc said...

My understanding of the AV+ proposal, that was recommended by the voting reform panel but dismissed by Labour, was that it would have constituencies voted for by AV, then regional parliamentary members voted for by Proportional Representation from Party Lists.

I would assume that the Lib Dems are going to try to extract that from any potential coalition partner. Labour may well concede it, but the Conservatives would suffer too much under that system and would very likely reject it.

Peter Wolf said...

I think the Lib Dems will do fine under this proposal. Thing to bear in mind is that most labour voters will happily also vote lib dem, and few true tories would vote labour ahead of lib dem. So I reckon Lib Dem's will pick up a lot of second votes, and as most seats are competed for by 2 not 3 parties that should help them.

Robert said...

I am not at all fond of party list systems.

All you'd get is the unelectable sitting pretty on the top of the list and getting elected anyway.

(Say Sarah's on the top of the list. Nobody votes for her and she still gets elected. Not good either if the system permits dynasties.)

Pan said...

The real problem is when people think that they'll solve the problem of party entrenchment simply by changing the voting system. That's foolish thinking.

In reality, no matter which for of voting they might switch to in the US, the results will typically be identical to FPTP voting. I'm not so starry-eyed as to think otherwise. The reason I'd want it here is that it would help defuse the argument that voting for a third party candidate is throwing away a vote. Every once in a while, the third party candidate(s) is the better candidate. But you always have to perform this mental calculus that voting for them in our system will likely be a strategically poor decision.

That's what I'd like to avoid. I'm not familiar enough with the system in the UK to give an intelligent comment on it, so I'll refrain.

But here, it'd be nice not to have to play "what if" games in cases like Gore/Bush/Nader/Buchanan or Bush/Clinton/Perot or Coleman/Franken/Barkley, where the FPTP system may have had a lot to do with the results.

Alon Levy said...

Proportional representation versus single-member districts is a separate issue, of how to elect legislatures. Plurality/FPTP, AV/IRV, approval, etc., are systems about how to elect a single candidate.

With that caveat: party list systems can be done open-list, as in Finland. In such a system, you vote simultaneously for a party and for a candidate within the party. Each party gets a number of seats proportional to its number of votes; within each party, the candidates with the highest number of individual votes get elected.

Even in the more common closed list systems, where parties rank candidates internally, the top figures have to be electable. A toxic party head would make people less likely to vote for the party.

Besides which, party list vote is only national in Austria and Israel. Elsewhere, it involves multiple districts, each returning multiple legislators. The Democratic Party uses such a system in its primaries, with 4-6 delegates per Congressional district.

broken ladder said...
This post has been removed by the author.
broken ladder said...

Pan said:

The real problem is when people think that they'll solve the problem of party entrenchment simply by changing the voting system. That's foolish thinking.

Well, you are wrong. The voting system is the reason for two-party duopoly. In most voting methods (including plurality and Instant Runoff Voting, or "FPTP" and "Alternative Vote"), a tactical polarization between the front-runners prevents a voter from supporting candidates he likes better than the front-runners.

But Score Voting, and its simplified variant called Approval Voting, pass the "Favorite Betrayal Criterion". Say you honestly feel X=10, Y=5, Z=0, and Y and Z are the major party candidates. You would be strategically wise to give Y a 10. But unlike with other voting methods, that would not give you any incentive to downgrade X. Thus if X really is the preferred candidate of the electorate, X can win even if people think X isn't "electable".

Dale Sheldon said...

I just want to reiterate Broken Ladder's response to Pan.

Yes, the voting system _does_ matter. Spoiler-free election methods (like approval and score voting) are a different game entirely from the likes of FPTP and IRV, and I don't mean that in a metaphorical sense; I mean in a literal, mathematical, game theory sense, it's a different game, and it will lead to different results.

tmess2 said...

Preferential or IRV vote does not necessarily result in small parties winning more seats. What it does allow is voters to cast a vote for their first choice without worrying about wasting their vote. In a system where you have a significant third party (e.g. the Liberal Democrats), there is a reason to expect a somewhat closer three-way race once the "spoiler" issue is removed.

IRV does not give parties that can only poll 10% a chance to win the seat, but it does give a party that is polling in the low 20s a chance to win the seat and it allows the supporters of that parter to influence the results of the election if it doesn't win the seat.

The reason that IRV hasn't gotten above the local level in the US is that we put too many races on the ballot in districts that are too large to make IRV a workable system. It would simply be a logistical nightmare to try to do IRV on 20 races on the same ballot.

charles said...

I like the French system whereby you have to vote twice. In Canada, i wouldn't mark any second preference, because i distrust the liberals, conservatives and the greens and i do not see how i could rank cancer, aids and death by Bush bombing. I would show up in the polls and vote NDP only. The minor parties control about 1/3of the vote here with federal socialists (NDP)on 18 and the separatist socialists (BQ) on 10 with the greens etc., a few more. I say vote, then the powers that be can make deals for the second round and then we can revote. If the cancer peoplemake a deal i could consider it. Marking preferences ensures that deals take place after the vote, lots of them that i wouldn't approve of. No system is perfect, but the Brown system was put in place in British Columbia (decades ago) in one of the inumerable attempts to keep us 'socialist hordes' from power and lasted one election and everyone hated it!

broken ladder said...

Tmess2 said:

[Instant Runoff Voting allows] voters to cast a vote for their first choice without worrying about wasting their vote.

That is a common myth. Here's a simplified IRV election based on what happened in the 2008 IRV mayoral race in Burlington VT.

33% X>Y>Z
32% Y>X>Z
35% Z>Y>X

IRV elects X, after Y is eliminated. But if the last group of voters insincerely top-ranks Y, then Y wins by a landslide. They got their third choice instead of their second choice by voting sincerely.

Statistical analysis shows that an IRV user's best generalized tactic is to top-rank his favorite front-runner regardless of who his sincere favorite is. Thus IRV behaves almost identically to plurality voting, once voters have learned to game it.

..there is a reason to expect a somewhat closer three-way race once the "spoiler" issue is removed.

IRV does not remove the spoiler issue. That is a myth.

IRV does not give parties that can only poll 10% a chance to win the seat, but it does give a party that is polling in the low 20s a chance to win the seat and it allows the supporters of that partner to influence the results of the election if it doesn't win the seat.

As far as I can tell, this sentence makes no sense. I think you are confusing IRV for a proportional system. IRV is the single-winner form of STV, which is only proportional when used to elect more than a single-winner (e.g. in a council or legislative election).

Charles...

Top-two runoff is a pretty terrible voting method. Here are some Bayesian Regret figures which show this.

http://scorevoting.net/StratHonMix.html

Pan said...

#38: broken ladder said...

The voting system is the reason for two-party duopoly.


It's a big reason why got into the two party duopoly, no doubt. I didn't say any different. But changing to any of these systems won't solve that problem on the whole. The parties are now entrenched so well that they have money and organization on their side. Changing systems is not going to break that anytime soon. It will have an effect, but I disagree that it's going to be a total game changer.

As to the question of the Burlington election - just as it said in that page: Despite that, IRV still seems to have performed better in this election than plain plurality voting, which (based on top-preference votes) would have elected Wright. That would have been even worse, since Wright actually was a "lose-to-all loser" among the Big Three, i.e. would have lost head-to-head races versus either Kiss or Montroll.

In other words, ballot reform isn't going to solve all your problems. Sounds a lot like what I was saying in my post. And yeah, a perfect ballot system would solve this problem. But what's the point in that if the voters aren't going to approve said perfect system because they can't understand it and will therefore mistrust it?

So it seems to be a case of not seeing the forest for the trees when you focus on places where IRV doesn't give you a markedly "better" result than FPTP and ignore all the potential benefit.

What's especially frustrating is that if you got IRV widely used, you start getting people used to listing candidates rather than just always choosing one candidate to put an X by. After that becomes the mainstream, it's much more likely that you can have a discussion on simply changing the ways those votes are tallied using something like a Condorcet method.

Taradino C. said...

Remember this Simpsons episode?

Homer: From now on, there are three ways to do things: the right way, the wrong way, and the Max Power way.
Bart: Isn't that just the wrong way?
Homer: Yeah, but faster!


IRV is the Max Power way to run elections. It's like a series of plurality elections, but faster: instead of coming back N times to vote in runoffs, everyone goes to the polls once and votes in all N elections at the same time. But plurality elections are the problem, and doing several at once is no solution!

The only good thing about IRV is it gets people used to using a ballot that can be counted with a better method (i.e. any Condorcet method). On the other hand, we could use approval voting with the very same ballots people are already used to: just tell voters to mark as many candidates as they like.

Duncan said...

People seem to be saying that voting reform is good because it weakens the power of political parties. This fits well with the current zeitgeist that political parties are somehow wrong and a burden on democracy.

However, its worth remembering that without political parties most people have no chance of playing an active role in the political process. Unless you're a millionaire you can't play.

The US is clearly heading in this direction. The UK could be.

Another trend is the idea that fairer voting leads to better government. The experience of hung parliaments and national government in the UK certainly doesn't suggest that. The National Government of the 30s was a disaster. The Lib-Lab pact was awful etc...

Just thought I'd throw that lot into the mix of an increasingly technical debate about voting systems!

iopgod said...

Personally, I dont really see the benefit of the the strict "constituency link": i.e. that every voter has one, and only one, representative. Few enough people know, or indeed care, who their MP is; and probably dont care when they send a letter if it is answered by their own MP or a one of a team of their own MPs (And a team of MPs would give the constituent a greater chance of having an MP who is actually interested in the issue they wrote the letter about). While Multi-member constituencies might be a bit much with regard to, say, the Highlands of Scotland, with poor transport and low population, I dont see the problem with them for urban conurbations such as Sheffield currently 6 separate constituencies). STV for the cities and perhaps AV for the geographically larger rural areas might be a reasonable idea.

Re: the Burlington election:
"Statistical analysis shows that an IRV user's best generalized tactic is to top-rank his favorite front-runner regardless of who his sincere favorite is."

Of course, with the numbers given above, with a 3% margin of error, pre-election polling wouldn't (couldn't!) be accurate enough to tell who the "front runners" are. This is even more the case in, for example, the UK, where constituency by constituency polling is rare-to-non-existent. This somewhat reduces the potential for tactical voting.

Robert said...

Yes - Duncan has a good point.

In the UK there is a swathe of local counils run by the Tories propped up by the Lib Dems.

This came about by the politicians getting together themselves after the voters voted only for the one party under First Past the Post.

Even if the outcome were the same under AV the voters would have some level of acceptance of the situation built into their voting decision.

As for Bart Simpson's comment about being the faster way to do the wrong thing...the principle of voting is to vote for the party you DO want to win. Otherwise you are voting for a party you do NOT want to win, whatever the system.

:-)

Harald Korneliussen said...

Pan,

You may not be able to explain Condorcet to grandma, but I can't explain the modified Sainte-Laguë we use to get proportional representation in Norway either. So? As long as people see that it works, they will not demand to be explained the gritty details.

But it is true that Condorcet will select compromise candidates, so it would not give a representative result. I'd rather have a representative sample of the population (or who the population wants), than a couple of hundred samples of people clustered around the average. FWIW, FPTP and IRV are no better when it comes to ensuring proportional representation.

Anthony said...

I really think the single-member district system may actually, ironically, benefit the LibDems. They are the biggest Liberal party in Europe precisely because they are the only opposition in most districts. In places with proportional representation, it's actually significantly reduced their vote %, as it's bled away to Greens and Socialists and nationalists on the left. So, I'd actually expect them to do better under IRV and single member districts than under PR. And I would expect them to utterly dominate under condorcet; they would become the most important party in Britian.

slasher14 said...

In debates over IRV in the city of Santa Fe, NM, a city which has had Green city councilors since 1994, it was business interests that opposed it (misrepresenting it as impossible to understand) and populists who were for it. Since most of those sitting on the city council were plurality winners, it went nowhere. (The mayor at that time, for example, had been elected with only 34% of the vote.) I think the perception of the right -- for better or worse -- is that it stands to lose more elections under IRV, because it feels -- probably accurately -- that its prospective candidates are more disciplined than those on the left.

That said, consider Albuquerque, which holds a jungle primary that becomes a two-person race only if nobody gets more than 40% of the votes. Last year two Democrats split the vote, electing a Repub who got just over 40%.

So whatever the criticisms of IRV may be, it's a lot better than some of the nonsense that's out there posing as democracy.

@Dale Sheldon: IRV has one advantage for the third party no matter ho9w weak it may be. It removes the incentive for one of the major parties to trash the third party, often in very brutal ways, and forces the majors to address the third party's platform on something other than "they're going to get the other side elected." Since third parties are mostly about issues, this is better than the present system.

The NM Green Party had workers physically threatened by Democrats in 1994 because it was believed its candidate would throw the election to the Republicans (he didn't, the Republicans would have won either way). It is highly unlikely that any Green will win elective office above the local level in the foreseeable future, but there is a definite value in having candidates able to present their views free from the
"spoiler" argument.

broken ladder said...

Pan said:
changing to any of these systems won't solve that problem on the whole. The parties are now entrenched so well that they have money and organization on their side. Changing systems is not going to break that anytime soon. It will have an effect, but I disagree that it's going to be a total game changer.

I partially agree with you here. The entrenched connections and cash "war chests" of the major parties would give them an advantage, even with a different voting method. But that advantage would crumble quickly, and the political landscape would look radically different in little time.

For starters, consider two recent US elections in which a third candidate (in one case an independent, the other a Conservative Party candidate) had a significant amount of support. With Score Voting, we think these elections would have been quite different.

Also, being in a major party is not necessarily a huge asset in our current political climate. There's a lot of distaste for both parties, at least in American politics right now. With Score Voting, a candidate could run and challenge both major parties as lobbyist lap dogs, for example. If enough people preferred that candidate to the major party candidates, he would win, despite tactical voting.

With existing methods, that's not the case. Even if voters prefer the third party or independent candidate to the major parties, they often won't vote for him because they think he can't win -- it's a self-fulfilling prophecy.

That difference is absolutely a game changer. I don't see how you could contend it wouldn't be. Especially in light of the recent New York and New Jersey elections that I mentioned above.

As to the question of the Burlington election - just as it said in that page: Despite that, IRV still seems to have performed better in this election than plain plurality voting, which (based on top-preference votes) would have elected Wright.

That is an illusion of sorts. These voters were new to IRV and thus tactically naive. The behavior we would expect after a few cycles, is that Republicans would strategically top-rank their favorite between the two major parties (which in liberal Burlington are the Democrat and Progressive parties). If they had done that, Montroll would have likely won. Or to put it another way, if those Republican voters had been using plurality, a great many of them would probably have voted for someone else. So IRV probably did not change the winner from Republican to Progressive.

If you doubt that, just take a look at Burlington's electoral history. See how often they get a Republican/conservative mayor.

What's especially frustrating is that if you got IRV widely used, you start getting people used to listing candidates rather than just always choosing one candidate to put an X by. After that becomes the mainstream, it's much more likely that you can have a discussion on simply changing the ways those votes are tallied using something like a Condorcet method.

Actually, recent bad experiences with IRV in US elections make reformers like myself worry that IRV will spoil what little reform momentum there is. People in San Francisco (my home), Washington state, and Aspen CO have already had some bad experiences with IRV that are causing them to fight for its repeal. Their stated problems seem to be much less likely with Score/Approval voting.

Franco Marciano said...

At first I was confused if Mr. Sexton was refering to the Single-Transferable Vote method or "Choice Voting". I got it now.

It's great that it's gotten people talking. However, whatever the method of electing, I feel this referendum proposal won't be as strong as a proportional representational model proposal would be. The allure is having more than one MP to elect, with the seats awarded mirroring the percentages of the vote.

Franco Marciano said...

At first I was confused if Mr. Sexton was refering to the Single-Transferable Vote method or "Choice Voting". I got it now.

It's great that it's gotten people talking. However, whatever the method of electing, I feel this referendum proposal won't be as strong as a proportional representational model proposal would be. The allure is having more than one MP to elect, with the seats awarded mirroring the percentages of the vote.

Franco Marciano said...

sorry, didn't mean to post twice.

Dale Sheldon said...

@slasher14:

"IRV has one advantage for the third party no matter how weak it may be. It removes the incentive for one of the major parties to trash the third party, often in very brutal ways, and forces the majors to address the third party's platform on something other than "they're going to get the other side elected." Since third parties are mostly about issues, this is better than the present system."

Only for a time. Third-party support tends to grow over time, until they spoil an election and it's devastated. Under plurality, that can happen with just one vote, in a close enough election. Under IRV, it takes a minimum of 25% in a three-way race (but exponentially less the more candidates there are).

The brutal trashing is because of a VERY REAL chance of the third party being a spoiler, and IRV can't eliminate spoilers, it can only DELAY them.

T said...

iopgod says:

"STV for the cities and perhaps AV for the geographically larger rural areas might be a reasonable idea."

This system was actually proposed in the UK in 1917. The government attempted to introduce STV for 211 urban seats and AV/IRV for rural seats.

The proposal was voted for by the House of Commons five times but was defeated in the House of Lords.

broken ladder said...

STV is a poor proportional representation system compared to "modern" ones like reweighted range voting and asset voting.

http://scorevoting.net/RRV.html
http://scorevoting.net/Asset.html

T said...

The problem with a mix of PR and single seat constituencies in different parts of the country is that it creates distortions.

The 1917 proposal would give an unfair advantage to the Tories.

Tories would be given extra seats in areas where they are weak (the cities, which would use PR). But Labour would not be given the same minority representation where they are weak (rural areas, which would still be single seaters).

Mike said...
This post has been removed by the author.
Mike said...

Both AV and PR are stupid.

By far the best voting system I've seen -- and I used to hate it! -- is in Louisiana, where if neither candidate gets a majority, there's a run off with the top 2 candidates.

AV is particularly stupid because people may not want to "rank" their choices, but feel compelled to. (I witnessed this multiple times first hand in Student Union elections, which always produced "winners" that were complete "losers".) With the run-off system, it lets people abstain in the best possible way - by not voting.

Personally, I think the only thing Student Union elections ever got right was having "none of the above" as a viable option... we should implement that, and let the silent majority make it clear that we don't want any of the parties' chosen candidates!

broken ladder said...

Mike,

Top-two runoff is one of the poorest voting methods. Here are Bayesian Regret calculations that prove it.

http://scorevoting.net/StratHonMix.html

Joshua said...

The Strange Rebirth of Liberal England!

bpfitzgerald said...

Using student union elections as a point of comparison for preferential voting is not a strong starting point.

the result of preferential voting is that the victorious candidate is the person who has the most overall support by voters.

We have it for every election in Australia and it is very popular. Then again, we also have compulsory voting, which is also reasonably popular, whilst everywhere else in the world the idea of compulsory voting is frowned upon.

People have a tendency to defend their countries system of voting irrespective of the quality of the argument in favour of it. The first-past-the-post system, for instance, is considered in australia to be just about as unfair a system as one can have, and yet it is commonly defended in the US and europe.

broken ladder said...
This post has been removed by the author.
broken ladder said...
This post has been removed by the author.
broken ladder said...

bpfitzgerald said...

the result of preferential voting is that the victorious candidate is the person who has the most overall support by voters.

That's absolutely incorrect. IRV exhibits a number of self-contradiction examples, where asserting that IRV has elected the right candidate in one example logically forces you to say that it elected the wrong candidate in another example. One example is that IRV can actually elect a candidate that it declares is the worst (elects the same candidate even if you reverse all the ballots as if voters had the exact opposite preferences for the candidates). Non-monotonicity is another noteworthy example.

Moreover, a voting method which elected the person with the "most overall support by voters" would have a Bayesian Regret of zero, whereas IRV doesn't come anywhere close to that. Here are some typical BR figures for the common voting methods. IRV is the second worst, next to plurality voting.

Magically elect optimum winner 0
Score Voting (honest voters) 0.04941
Borda (honest voters) 0.13055
Approval Voting (honest voters) 0.20575
Condorcet-Least Reversal (honest voters) 0.22247
IRV (honest voters) 0.32314
Plurality (honest voters) 0.48628
Score & Approval (strategic exaggerating voters) 0.31554
Borda (strategic exaggerating voters) 0.70219
Condorcet-Least Reversal (strategic exaggerating voters) 0.86287
IRV (strategic exaggerating voters) 0.91522
Plurality (strategic voters) 0.91522
Elect random winner 1.50218

We have it for every election in Australia and it is very popular.

Perhaps it is, but it has exhibited numerous failings in Australia, particularly the fact that it is so susceptible to "naive exaggeration", and strategic voting in general. That is, both major parties advise their constituents to rank the other major party lower than the Green, Democrat, and Family First parties - an ineffective but clearly insincere tactic. It's insincere because if the Greens are more liberal than the Labour Party, then it obviously isn't sincere for the Liberal/National coalition to say that they prefer Greens to Labour. It's ineffective because "burial" doesn't work with IRV.

IRV also maintains two-party domination, unlike ordinary runoffs. Here's some more information about recent use of IRV in Australia (which has used the system since 1918).

Using student union elections as a point of comparison for preferential voting is not a strong starting point.

Why not? Voting behaviors and tactics, as well as the underlying mathematical properties, will be similar or the same in a student union election.

People have a tendency to defend their countries system of voting irrespective of the quality of the argument in favour of it. The first-past-the-post system, for instance, is considered in australia to be just about as unfair a system as one can have, and yet it is commonly defended in the US and europe.

Well, I live in San Francisco, and we use a limited form of Instant Runoff Voting (what you call preferential voting) here, where we can rank up to 3 candidates. In most of the USA, we use plurality voting. Both systems are antiquated and extremely poor. Score Voting, and its simplified variant called Approval Voting, are both vastly superior to IRV, and are simpler and don't have a strategic push toward two-party domination.

If you disagree with any of this, feel free to contact me at clay@brokenladder.com.

poloshirts said...

nice post!! There is obviously a lot to know about this. I think you made some good points in Features also.
We have
nike femmes chaussures
nike chaussures basket
nike chaussures hommes
chaussures pas cher nike
nike chaussures air max
nike chaussures shox
nike chaussures air jordan
with excellent quality!!Welcome to our store.

poloshirts said...

nice post!! There is obviously a lot to know about this. I think you made some good points in Features also.
We have
tennis rackets
babolat tennis rackets
wilson tennis racquets
tennis racquets
wilson tennis racket
cheap babolat tennis racquets
cheap tennis racquets
with excellent quality!!Welcome to our store.

poloshirts said...

nice post!! There is obviously a lot to know about this. I think you made some good points in Features also.
We do kinds of casual clothing wholesale online, welcome to visit!!
winter clothing
winter jackets
winter clothes
ski jackets
north face sale
discount north face jackets
north face coats
men's down jackets
cotton polo shirts
polo shirts
cheap polo shirts
ralph lauren polo shirts
discount polo shirts
polo shirts wholesale
columbia jackets
the north face jackets
columbia sportswear jackets

poloshirts said...

nice post!! There is obviously a lot to know about this. I think you made some good points in Features also.

We do kinds of casual clothing wholesale online, welcome to visit!!
Polo Shirts On Sale
Cheap Polo Shirts
Burberry Polo Shirts
ski jackets
The North Face Clothing
Mens ski jackets
Womens ski jackets
Ralph Lauren Polo Shirts
men's down jackets
cotton polo shirts
polo shirts
cheap polo shirts
discount polo shirts
polo shirts wholesale
womens polo shirts
mens polo shirts
polo clothing
polo long sleeve shirt
short sleeve polo shirt
long sleeve polo shirts
embroidered shirts
discount north face jackets
winter jackets
short sleeve polo shirt

OzgurDunyam said...

Thank you for the information your provide.sesli chatSohbette kaliteSesliSohbetSeslide kaliteSesli SohbetSende gel dunyamizaSesli Chat KatilSesli Chat siteleriBizi mutlu edersin.sesliAlemSesli SohbetburdaSesli ChatSesli sohbetteSesli SohbetSeNSesli ChatGelSesli SohbetAramizaSesli ChatkatilSesli SohbetbizimleSesli Chaten güzeliniSesli SohbetyasayacaksınSesli ChatHadiSesli SohbetbekliyorumSesli ChatSeniSesli sohbet siteleriArkadasliklarSesli şehir burda
Seslişehirkuruluravsa avsaSendeSesliChatgel
SesliSohbetarkadasiniSeslisohbet siteleribulSesliChat sitelerigelecen misesli chatthansk admin.
SesliChat sitesigel yanimizaSesli Chat sitesi bekliyorum.

ibrahim said...

thanks
Sesli sohbet Sesli chat
Sesli sohbet Sesli chat
Sesli sohbet Sesli chat
Sesli sohbet Sesli chat
Sesli sohbet Sesli chat
Sesli sohbet Sesli chat
Sesli sohbet Sesli chat
dini sohbet dini chat
Sesli chat Sesli sohbet
Sesli sohbet Sesli chat
sohbet chat
Sesli chat muhabbet
Sesli Sesli siteler
chatteyiz chat
islami sohbet islami chat
sesli chat siteleri sesli sohbet siteleri
seslisohbet seslichat
Seslisohbet Seslichat
Sesli şehir Seslişehir
Sesli panel panel
sohbet merkezi Sesli toplum
diyarbakir diyarbakir gazeteleri

arkadyali said...

thanks
Sesli sohbet Sesli chat
Sesli sohbet Sesli chat
Sesli sohbet Sesli chat
Sesli sohbet Sesli chat
Sesli sohbet Sesli chat
Sesli sohbet Sesli chat
Sesli sohbet Sesli chat
Sesli sohbet Sesli chat
Sesli sohbet Sesli chat
Sesli sohbet Sesli chat
Sesli sohbet Sesli chat
Sesli sohbet Sesli chat
Sesli sohbet Sesli chat
Sesli sohbet Sesli chat
Sesli sohbet Sesli chat
Sesli sohbet Sesli chat
Sesli sohbet Sesli chat
Sesli sohbet Sesli chat
kurtce sohbet kurtce chat
Sesli sohbet Sesli chat
araba arabam
alim satim alis veris
alim satim alis veris

rong said...

your article is very good, but do you like the
pink ghd
babyliss
armani sunglasses
gucci sunglasses outlet
discount abercrombie and fitch clothes
abercrombie fitch outlet
abercrombie & fitch clothing
ed hardy wholesale
cheap ed hardy wholesale
discount ed hardy wholesale
wholesale ed hardy
ed hardy outlet
paul smith shirt
paul smith
paul smith 2010
cheap paul smith
discount paul smith
paul smith shoes
Burberry scarf
Burberry outlet
cheap Burberry handbags
Burberry totes
newest Burberry
moncler
Moncler jackets
Moncler coats
Moncler Vest
discount Moncler outlet
moncler polo t shirt
cheap ugg boots
discount ugg boots
ugg boots
classic ugg boots
ugg classic tall boots
AirMax BW
AirMax Huarache
AirMax LTD
AirMax Skyline
AirMax TN

rong said...

how do you think the AirMax Zength
AirMax 09
AirMax 180
AirMax 2003
AirMax 2006
AirMax 2009
AirMax 2010
AirMax 360
AirMax 87
AirMax 90
AirMax 91
AirMax 92
AirMax 93
AirMax 95
coach outlet
coach handbag
coach handbags
coach bag
coach bags
discount Oaklay sunglasses
cheap Ray Ban sunglasses
ugg boots
ugg boots discount
cheap ugg boots
classic ugg boots
ugg classic tall boots

rong said...

spyder
spyder jackets
spyder ski wear
Detroit Lions
Green Bay Packers
Houston Texans
Indianapolis Colts
Jacksonville Jaguars
Kansas City Chiefs
Miami Dolphins
Minnesota Vikings
New England Patriots
New Orleans Saints
herve leger
herve leger bandage dress
moncler
moncler jackets
moncler coats
moncler vest
moncler outlet
moncler Polo t shirt
ugg boots
polo boots
polo shoes

nokia-021 said...

Sesli SohbetgelSesli Chat siteleri
Sesli Sohbet sitelerisendeSesli Chat
Sesli SohbetgelSesli Chat siteleri
Sesli Sohbet siteleridostum beklemeSesli Chat
Sesli Sohbetyoksa pismanSesli Chat siteleri
Sesli Sohbet siteleriolacaksinSesli Chat
Sesli SohbettiklagelSesli Chat siteleri
Sesli Sohbet siteleribizim siteyeSesli Chat
Sesli Sohbetsende katilSesli Chat siteleri
Sesli Sohbet siteleriortamimizaSesli Chat
Sesli Sohbetbizi bekletmeSesli Chat siteleri
Sesli Sohbet siteleridostluklarSesli Chat
Sesli SohbetarkadasliklarSesli Chat siteleri
Sesli Sohbet siteleriasklarSesli Chat
Sesli Sohbetmuhabbet eglenceSesli Chat siteleri
Sesli Sohbet sitelerihersey burdaSesli Chat
Sesli Sohbethaydi ne bekliyorsunSesli Chat siteleri
Sesli Sohbet sitelerisohbet zamaniSesli Chat
Sesli Sohbethep birlikteSesli Chat siteleri
Sesli Sohbet siteleriguzel dostluklaraSesli Chat

seldamuratim said...

Really trustworthy blog. Please keep updating with great posts like this one. I have booked marked your site and am about to email it to a few friends of mine that I know would enjoy reading..
sesli sohbetsesli chatkamerali sohbetseslisohbetsesli sohbet sitelerisesli chat siteleriseslichatsesli sohpetseslisohbet.comsesli chatsesli sohbetkamerali sohbetsesli chatsesli sohbetkamerali sohbet
seslisohbetsesli sohbetkamerali sohbetsesli chatsesli sohbetkamerali sohbet

DiSCo said...

Really trustworthy blog. Please keep updating with great posts like this one. I have booked marked your site and am about to email it

to a few friends of mine that I know would enjoy reading..
seslisohbet
seslichat
sesli sohbet
sesli chat
sesli

ibrahim said...

Sohbet siteleri Chat siteleri
Sesli Sohbet siteleri Sesli Chat siteleri
Sohbet chat siteleri Chat sohbet siteleri
Sesli Sohbet sitesi Sesli chat sitesi
Sohbet sitesi Chat sitesi
Sohbet chat sitesi Chat sohbet sitesi
Sesli siteleri Sesli sitesi
Sesli Sohbet Sesli Chat siteleri
Sesli Sohbet siteleri Sesli Chat
Sesli Sohbet Sesli Chat siteleri
Sesli Sohbet siteleri Sesli Chat
Sesli Sohbet Sesli Chat siteleri
Sesli Sohbet siteleri Sesli Chat
Sesli Sohbet Sesli Chat siteleri
Sesli Sohbet siteleri Sesli Chat
Kurtce sohbet kurtce chat
kurtce sesli sohbet Kurtce sesli chat
Sesli Sohbet Sesli Chat siteleri
Sesli Sohbet siteleri Sesli Chat

ibrahim said...

Sesli SohbetgelSesli Chat siteleri
Sesli Sohbet sitelerisendeSesli Chat
Sesli SohbetgelSesli Chat siteleri
Sesli Sohbet siteleridostum beklemeSesli Chat
Sesli Sohbetyoksa pismanSesli Chat siteleri
Sesli Sohbet siteleriolacaksinSesli Chat
Sesli SohbettiklagelSesli Chat siteleri
Sesli Sohbet siteleribizim siteyeSesli Chat
Sesli Sohbetsende katilSesli Chat siteleri
Sesli Sohbet siteleriortamimizaSesli Chat
Sesli Sohbetbizi bekletmeSesli Chat siteleri
Sesli Sohbet siteleridostluklarSesli Chat
Sesli SohbetarkadasliklarSesli Chat siteleri
Sesli Sohbet siteleriasklarSesli Chat
Sesli Sohbetmuhabbet eglenceSesli Chat siteleri
Sesli Sohbet sitelerihersey burdaSesli Chat
Sesli Sohbethaydi ne bekliyorsunSesli Chat siteleri
Sesli Sohbet sitelerisohbet zamaniSesli Chat
Sesli Sohbethep birlikteSesli Chat siteleri
Sesli Sohbet siteleriguzel dostluklaraSesli Chat