Dragonsfoot

I thought PC2 was rather silly. Not for use 'as written' in a "serious" campaign, but quite doable in a Terry Gilliam production, and as most anything is, it can be altered to taste by the DM & players, so I find PC2 useful overall.

Frank - I'm looking forward to see your Empyrea modules under the production umbrella of your new company, even if it's not going to be a full line yet, perhaps there will be more than enough interest to keep 'em coming.

...And as for naming the company, have you given any thoughts about a contest to name it?

Hey Frank, I know you're a busy dude, but if you're interested, an Empyrea thread has popped up on my boards with some questions that I can only guess at.
http://doomsdaygames.proboards.com/inde ... thread=771" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Thanks for weighing in on my questions Frank. Saves seem to be a good way to resolve character actions, especially if trying to maintain the classic feel of your game.

Hi, Frank.
On the topic of ability checks, have you any advice about the old chestnut of "Bob is playing a genius; Bob is not a genius." problem. This is where I tend to use ability checks most - to feed out a hint to a supposedly high-intelligence magic user who's player is simply stumped by something. Any thoughts about a better way to handle this?

nagora wrote:have you any advice about the old chestnut of "Bob is playing a genius; Bob is not a genius." problem. This is where I tend to use ability checks most - to feed out a hint to a supposedly high-intelligence magic user whose player is simply stumped by something. Any thoughts about a better way to handle this?

I use that rationale as a tool to feed the mage's player, rather than as something to roll for.

I teach the players of all spellcasters, routinely. This is more a side effect of my having 30+ years of experience at the game; I've explored some details that most haven't. This came up en passant in my live campaign last Saturday. An allied NPC caster used a spell in a way that none of the others had seen (even though the players have 20+ years of experience).


The overall situation is usually this: the DM has information to give out but can't find a way to insert it elegantly. Elegant is best, but sometimes (usually through DM error) it can't be so. Now if that data is crucial, why put die rolls in the way? And if it's not crucial, then why insist on giving it out right then? Jot a note to yourself to sneak that data in some other time, and move on.

The principal problem that arises is typically when a DM 'paints himself into a corner', i.e. has included an obstacle that must be resolved & passed for the plot or adventure to continue. This gives rise to the age-old problem of (miniature?) railroading. Best to design around it with more forethought... but of course that doesn't solve your problem at the time.

imho, if it's that important, don't make it something to roll for.

F

Attn: Classical music fans in PITTSBURGH, PA

Pittsburgh Opera
2425 Liberty Ave
Pittsburgh, PA 15222
412 281 0912
http://www.PittsburghOpera.org/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Eugene Onegin (music: Tchaikovsky; libretto: Shilovsky, based on a novel by Pushkin) 2009: Sat 9/26, Tue 9/29, Fri 10/02, Sun 10/04
(All shows at the Benedum Center; Sung in Russian with English translations projected above the stage; est performance time 3.5 hrs incl 1 intermission)

Eugene Onegin: Dwayne Croft; Madame Larina: Susanne Mentzer; Tatiana: Anna Samuil; Filipyevna: Susan Shafer (& Ammann, Very, Lensky, Frank; Moran, Gradus)


Master Class with Susanne Mentzer
01 Oct 2009, 7:00 PM - 8:45 PM

Mezzo-soprano Susanne Mentzer, appearing as Madame Larina in Eugene Onegin, will instruct our Resident Artists one-on-one with musical, dramatic, linguistic and stylistic critiques. Get a behind-the-scenes look at how singers learn from experts in their field. Free and open to the public; no reservations required.

So what you are saying is that your wife(?) makes all the money in the family, eh?

Seriously, sounds really cool! I have never been to any opera shows, but I do like to listen to some Tschaikovsky (more his symphonies, than anything else) once in a while. Very relaxing music, and it helped woo the ladies 'back in the day'

DMPrata wrote:

Druvas wrote:So what you are saying is that your wife(?) makes all the money in the family, eh?

Seriously, sounds really cool! I have never been to any opera shows, but I do like to listen to some Tschaikovsky (more his symphonies, than anything else) once in a while. Very relaxing music, and it helped woo the ladies 'back in the day'

I could be mistaken, but I believe Susanne is Frank's sister.

Yeah... I knew that... I was just checking to see if everyone else did. Yeah, that's it... Sister... Wife... What's the difference? Just kidding!

Wow, the reminded me of a a couple posts I made long ago, regarding the sample dungeon from the "Classic D&D Game" box set (aka "the new, easy to master D&D Game") that came out alongside the RC.... http://www.dragonsfoot.org/forums/viewt ... 27#p187727" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Mr. Reaper wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Wasn't there a BBEG named Sanzer Tem, in one of the newer later boxed sets? Sounds suspiciously like an anagram!

By Jiminy, I never noticed that!

The name was Zanzer Tem, from the 1991 D&D game solo adventure...

That's an anagram for ....

Za Mentzer ?

Looks like Frank got some recognition after all.

What's "Za" mean?

Mr. Reaper wrote:Ok... in the solo, you had to escape from "Zanzer Tem's Dungeon."

"Zanzer Tem's Dungeon" is an anagram for "A dozen sung Mentzer!"

yeah? yeah? See, a dozen people sang his praises?

Ok, maybe the correct anagram is: "A dozen guns, Mentzer"

Possibly... "Mentzer's dung zones"

Or uh... "Suzanne Mentzer, God"

Is that anyone you know, Frank?

Just a z/s away from being the correct name....

Frank Mentzer wrote:Attn: Classical music fans in PITTSBURGH, PA

Pittsburgh Opera
2425 Liberty Ave
Pittsburgh, PA 15222
412 281 0912
http://www.PittsburghOpera.org/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Eugene Onegin (music: Tchaikovsky; libretto: Shilovsky, based on a novel by Pushkin) 2009: Sat 9/26, Tue 9/29, Fri 10/02, Sun 10/04
(All shows at the Benedum Center; Sung in Russian with English translations projected above the stage; est performance time 3.5 hrs incl 1 intermission)

Eugene Onegin: Dwayne Croft; Madame Larina: Susanne Mentzer; Tatiana: Anna Samuil; Filipyevna: Susan Shafer (& Ammann, Very, Lensky, Frank; Moran, Gradus)


Master Class with Susanne Mentzer
01 Oct 2009, 7:00 PM - 8:45 PM

Mezzo-soprano Susanne Mentzer, appearing as Madame Larina in Eugene Onegin, will instruct our Resident Artists one-on-one with musical, dramatic, linguistic and stylistic critiques. Get a behind-the-scenes look at how singers learn from experts in their field. Free and open to the public; no reservations required.

Hey Frank, any chance you'll be making it? I go to the Benedum Center occasionally for a classical fix. My son was born last week, so I'm kind of busy these days, but I might be able to swing it.

Hi, Frank

I was having another look at Jean Wells' original version of "Palace of the Silver Princess" and noticed your name in the credits.

Any insight on the whole orange version vs. green version of the module? Many folks nowadays really love Jean's version. What's the down low on how it was regarded back then, and what role you played in its development?

ScottyG wrote:Master Class with Susanne Mentzer
any chance you'll be making it?

Sadly not. I had hoped to go east this week to see the folks and such (after being GoH at Concentric convention in Chicagoland), but I'm tied up (again). :/

I'm not big on opera (and sis knows it), but watching her Master Class would be a hoot. One of the earliest master classes from the other direction, when she was a grad student at Juliard, was presided over by Pavarotti himself, and is out there somewhere on YouTube.

And now she's giving such classes herself... fascinating.

F

paleologos wrote:Hi, Frank

I was having another look at Jean Wells' original version of "Palace of the Silver Princess" and noticed your name in the credits.

Any insight on the whole orange version vs. green version of the module? Many folks nowadays really love Jean's version. What's the down low on how it was regarded back then, and what role you played in its development?

This should prove interesting.

Green vs Orange really has been a memorable controversy. There is the DF review, and the "other" staement, but I would be interested to hear the truth of the matter.

http://www.dragonsfoot.org/forums/viewt ... s+&start=0" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp? ... 20020121x7" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Thorkhammer wrote:

paleologos wrote:Hi, Frank

I was having another look at Jean Wells' original version of "Palace of the Silver Princess" and noticed your name in the credits.

Any insight on the whole orange version vs. green version of the module? Many folks nowadays really love Jean's version. What's the down low on how it was regarded back then, and what role you played in its development?

This should prove interesting.

paleologos wrote:I was having another look at Jean Wells' original version of "Palace of the Silver Princess" and noticed your name in the credits. Many folks nowadays really love Jean's version. What's the down low on how it was regarded back then, and what role you played in its development?

Jean had been an early 'first-wave' hire (the first real staff expansion), and was trying to become a staff writer/illustrator. She and Skip Williams were a known couple sorta, tho Skip was standoffish (and slender, young, and quiet) while Jean was hoping for marriage (and was rather large & brash). Jean was ambitious, but her writing and artworks were both second-rate, as it turned out (sorry to be so blunt, Jean). Once TSR hired good writers, editors & artists (like Johnson, Hammack, & Moldvay, and Otus, Willingham, & Roslof) her failings became more apparent. So she had lapsed back into the obscurity of support staff, handling filing & secretarial duties. Then she submitted this manuscript as a way to reverse her declining fortunes.

The top guys in Production (Law Schick & Harold Johnson) were ordered by Management (Gary & Brian Blume) to give Jean her shot, and the design wasn't tightly critiqued. It was approved for publication almost solely because it was Jean's one and only chance at 'fame & fortune', and she had paid her dues, and had earned her shot.

The principal editor was Ed Sollers, who was a regular in my campaign game; I knew him well. He was a newhire, but did fine on checking the usuals -- spelling, grammar & such. He assumed that the design was solid (why else was it slated for production?) and didn't evaluate it from that perspective.

I still think Jean did pretty well, tho there were a few errors characteristic of a newbie who didn't know the ropes. I was also involved in the playtests. I helped a bit, critiquing some of the details, but didn't give it a full checkover... didn't have time, and I made the same wrong assumptions about the approval process. Amongst ourselves in the production dept. (I was an Editor at the time, before I started the RPGA), we thought it was a mediocre design by the latest standards, but publishable, and potentially popular for both Jean's style (notably different from other writers) and the fact that she was a she; the field was severely male-dominated and male-oriented.

We know how it all turned out of course. Erol indulged himself in a graphic poke at TSR's execs, and there were some peripheral design flaws (like a missing important stairway). Brian Blume (VP) seized upon the minor flaws to remove the artwork. In truth, the reason for the recall was Erol's prank, not the flawed but usable castle design; Jean was collateral damage (tho not entirely; her arwork was too amateurish). The whole thing was pulled & reworked, becoming one of TSR's most infamous incidents thereby: OB3.

Epilogue: Erol came that close to getting canned for it but stayed. Jean held onto her filing job, but her only shot at success was blown. The late Tom Moldvay rewrote the module significantly, removing most of Jean's flavor and replacing it with his own style & preferences. Jean left TSR within a couple of years, and eventually married Corey Koebernick -- another regular in my campaign who worked in the business offices, and who was also co-author of various materials for the Top Secret game.


End Result: Tom's rewrite of B3 was fine in itself, but he was specifically instructed to go with his own preferences and ideas, and to not consider the original author's intentions when making such changes. imho, I felt that was unfortunate and unnecessary. Certain format changes (such as do-it-yourself rooms vs fully stocked & described) were a result of our changing attitudes & knowledge about the use of modules, not attributable to Tom's whims. Gary had wanted some wilderness details of the vicinity, but those were deleted to make room for Tom's expanded text.

I agree with some of Rateliff's WotC commentary. The 'objectionable art' section is notably off, as follows. Brian's principal objection was to the full-page art of the 3-headed ettins (ubues), and that was the real reason for the recall. (He personally went around that evening and pulled all the office copies he could find, fearing in part that some of us would pull out that page and hang it over our desks to mock management). The rest of the objections to artwork were minor and often rather far-fetched, many provided to justify the recall decision and to obfuscate the real reason.

Though I could puncture other details* from Rateliff, the general tenor is reasonably close to reality. If they'd've asked me for details I could've told 'em... but nobody at WotC ever asks me anything.

F

* Like (quote) "the few copies that evaded the recall... typically sold shrink-wrapped so that the potential buyer could never compare it"... huh? Shrink'd is worth more to collectors than non-, and we can tell original shrink from rewrapt; there's no obfuscatory conspiracy here, bub

I can only guess that Erol Otis aped the Blumes in the Ubue picture (upper left 2 outer male heads), but I can't quite figure out who else he poked fun at in that pic.
Care to share that with us too, Frank?

Thanks for the insight into this old scandal.

Personally, I am sorry that Ms Well's abilities were not up to standard, for the heart & soul of her intention within the module was A+ in comparison with the absolute lacking of H&S in later publications; though the execution of those later modules was superb.

Few modules attain or exceed the H&S that the OB3 has(had).

The few that come to mind are the:

C1, S1, T1

Wow, Frank, thanks for such a complete reply!

The colour is so appropriate for Jean's original version - it's like a module captured in amber. While I see your points about the level of quality I agree with Thork that it's just full of heart and soul. It's funny how these are the features that are most apparent after the passage of so much time.

I don't know what she was like in person, but one gets a pretty good impression from her early Sage Advice columns in The Dragon. It's really too bad it was the art by our good buddy EO that torpedoed her version. Sounds like it really might have been the B3 we all would have become familiar with, otherwise.

Anyway, thanks again for sharing your recollections on the subject. If Jean is reading this, then she already knows that she did get some fans, in the end.

Managers without a sense of humor should be dragged out into the street and shot... with banana cream pies

This topic reminds me that I really do need to get back to finishing my fleshing out of the orange B3.

Anyway, totally different question for you Frank. Why did you call mystics that name instead of monk?

ken-do-nim wrote:Why did you call mystics that name instead of monk?

I chose a more generic term to (as usual) avoid connotations. A monk (masc.; fem. nun) is any religious ascetic (one who lives separate from others not sharing his beliefs) and comes in many flavors, each of which carries considerable baggage.

What type of monk do you have in mind? A quick look at Wiki gives some options: cenobite, hermit, anchorite, hesychast, sarabaite, gyrovague... Jain, Vaishnava, Buddhist (Theravad, Mahayan, Bhikkhu, Vajrayan), and Christian (including Christian Orthodox, Roman Catholic, Anglican, and Lutheran).

And, being religious, most rw varieties are noncombatants. That definitely doesn't work as a D&D PC. ;>

F

So there!

For the longest time, since playing in elementary school, I'd always pictured Monks as brown-robed dudes with a ring of hair around their heads swinging nunchuks of all things. Boy was I confused, just by the name alone!

The Benedictine Order of the Shao-Lin!!

BlackBat242 wrote:The Benedictine Order of the Shao-Lin!!

I'm all for Zen Catholicism myself.

Okay, Frank, I have another one for you...

Where the heck did Carl Smith get all those NPCs to populate AC1 The Shady Dragon Inn? I've always wondered if they were from an old OD&D campaign of his, since the Dex and Con scores are reversed throughout.

There are a lot of tantalizing place names scattered here and there. Do you know if these were from an actual campaign or were they just pulled out of the air?

Frank,
Dunno if you have an answer to this but I'll throw it out there.

I just obtained a copy of UK2, The Sentinel. I love the cartography of that module and all the UK modules.
1) Did those modules go through TSR America before publication or were they an all TSR UK production?
2) Do you have any idea how the maps were produced?

There is a wilderness hex map on the inside cover of the module that is of particular interest to me. I love the look of it and would love to produce maps in that style.

Thanks for reading.
- Jeff

Frank, if this seems silly, or too repetitive, just PM me to STFU!

But I was thinking yesterday, and my thinker got broken puzzling over this one:

Gary's Giants were segmented for obvious reasons, thus the 1-2-3 for each giant type. He continued the story arc into the underworld with a long journey, culminating in the discovery of the (you know who) and broke the Ds into separate and easy to run sections. But to conclude the adventure, there was only one more installment needed. Even though his hand was not (admittedly) that involved, it was to be the end of the adventure, The Queen of the Demonweb.

So, why did it warrant a number (1) behind the Q? Were others planned?

Also, just a trivia kook kind of discovery, did you ever wonder/or ask Gary why, in the naming of the Gs, only the G2 states "The Glacial Rift of the Frost Giant Jarl" Both the 1&2 leave off the "the". Was there some reason behind this?

Be patient, I don't have a real life, ya know.

Frank--

Any new word about you and your partners' new company?